Syria In Prophecy…

 

The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.(Isaiah 17:1-2)

At a breath-taking rate, world events are increasingly lining up with predictions of the prophets of the Bible, signifying that the Day of the Lord draws near. The biblical prophets are specific as to geo-political alignments and events which are to occur in the last days. The rapidly festering situation in Syria is an example of this phenomenom.

The Assad government of Syria is currently reacting to its own  version of the so-called ‘Arab spring’. The wave of populist reform demonstrations in the Arab world has already swept aside the governments of Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Libya and has stirred discontent in several other Arab nations.

Bashir Assad has shown a willingness to brutally suppress all internal  dissent, having slaughtered four thousand of his own people, and sent tens of thousands into hiding, to maintain his power. But he is feeling besieged, and is looking for insurance in the form of beefed up weapons and military.

Having recently been censured by the Arab league, and threatened by Turkey, and seeing what NATO did to fellow Arab despot Gaddafi, Assad is looking for help from Iran,Russia, and even North Korea in his quest to fend off his enemies.

Here is an article from the English edition of ADNKRONOS International, titled, “Syria:Iranian and N.Korean Rocket Experts hold Damascus Meetings”

Damascus, 1 Dec. (AKI) – Dozens of officials from North Korea and Iran have conducted meetings with representatives of the Syrian government in Damascus to help president Bashar al-Assad obtain weapons following the implementation of sanctions by members of the Arab League and other countries.

 The meetings have been taking place in recent days, and were attended by experts in the production of rockets, according to Kuwaiti daily al-Seyassah, citing unnamed intelligence sources.

 “The Syrian regime is afraid of losing power so is asking help from these two allies to put in place whatever means are necessary, even if it causes many deaths,” an intelligence source told the newspaper. “The only way to stop further bloodshed is for foreign intervention”.

Furthermore this article from Israel’s Arutz Sheva called,“Russia sent Syria Super Advanced s-300 Missiles” indicates that Assad  is determined not to become the next Gaddafi, even if maintaining power involves World War.

Certainly Syria, Russia, North Korea, Europe, America, and of course Israel, are all preparing for something terrible.

The prophet Isaiah predicted that at the time of the end, a dreadful thing which has not ever happened in history is  to occur. Damascus will cease from being a city, no longer will it be a seat of Government, a heap of rubble is it’s future.

Jeremiah implies that shortly before her destruction, Damascus will be surprised that Jerusalem is not “deserted” as she expected,  this causes Damascus to lose heart herself.

Damascus has grown feeble; 
She turns to flee, 
And fear has seized her.
Anguish and sorrows have taken her like a woman in labor. 
Why is the city of praise not deserted, the city of My joy? 
Therefore her young men shall fall in her streets, 
And all the men of war shall be cut off in that day,” says the LORD of hosts. 
“ I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus, 
And it shall consume the palaces of Ben-Hadad.”( Jeremiah 49:24-27)

Whatever the provocation, the destruction of Damascus will reflect badly upon Israel in the court of world opinion. The world will turn on Israel, blaming her for what happens to Damascus. What little favor Israel had enjoyed up till then will shrivel up, it will resemble the last few olives left after the shaking of the olive tree by the reapers.

“ In that day it shall come to pass 
That the glory of Jacob will wane, 
And the fatness of his flesh grow lean. 
It shall be as when the harvester gathers the grain, 
And reaps the heads with his arm; 
It shall be as he who gathers heads of grain 
In the Valley of Rephaim. 
Yet gleaning grapes will be left in it, 
Like the shaking of an olive tree, 
Two or three olives at the top of the uppermost bough, 
Four or five in its most fruitful branches,” 
Says the LORD God of Israel.(Isaiah 17:4-6)

Damascus shall be obliterated in the context of a wider war, which will be destructive of other Arab cities as well, such as the area we call Gaza, which is a terrorist state designated as part of the U.N.imposed “two state solution”, but which God calls, “the nation not desired”…

Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation, 
Before the decree is issued, 
Or the day passes like chaff, 
Before the LORD’s fierce anger comes upon you, 
Before the day of the LORD’s anger comes upon you! (Zechariah 2:1-2)

For Gaza shall be forsaken, 
And Ashkelon desolate; 
They shall drive out Ashdod at noonday, 
And Ekron shall be uprooted. 
Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast, 
The nation of the Cherethites! 
The word of the LORD is against you, 
O Canaan, land of the Philistines: (Zephaniah 2:4-5)

The one positive aspect of these terrible times, is that even the hardest of men will begin to seek the living God,

In that day a man will look to his Maker,
And his eyes will have respect for the Holy One of Israel. (Isaiah 17:7)

Zechariah echoes Isaiah,

The burden of the word of the LORD in the land of Hadrach, and Damascus shall be the rest thereof: when the eyes of man, as of all the tribes of Israel, shall be toward the LORD.(Zechariah 9:1)

The international outcry that will be raised against Israel will be unprecedented. The nations line up to register complaint in the U.N., newspaper headlines will scream, pundits will wax eloquent with moral indignation, religious leaders will pontificate against Israel, her former lovers will leave her, and it will be extremely unfashionable to stand with God’s chosen people in that day.

Woe to the multitude of many people 
Who make a noise like the roar of the seas, 
And to the rushing of nations 
That make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! 
13 The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters; …(Isaiah 17:11-12)

But the outcry will merely be the prelude to the outpouring of Divine wrath upon all nations . Tribulation such as never occurred upon the earth, the wind and the sea raging, and men’s hearts failing them for fear…

But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, 
And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind, 
Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.(Isaiah 17: 13-14)

But it is as in the evening, which seems always darkest before dawn, such is the tribulation and time of Jacob’s trouble, as Isaiah says,

Then behold, at eventide, trouble! 
And before the morning, he is no more. 
This is the portion of those who plunder us, 
And the lot of those who rob us.(Isaiah 17:14)

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25 Responses to Syria In Prophecy…

  1. mittens says:

    The Bible is full of prophecies…and you know what? Not one–not a single one _ever_ came true.

    • billrandles says:

      Thanks Mittens- have you heard about what happened in May of 1948? A nation that had been obliterated for almost two thousand years, and had been scattered to the ends of the earth,(as prophesied) came back into being, exactly as he biblical prophets foretold- 1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2 “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity[a] and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the LORD.”(Jeremiah 30:1)
      This is what the LORD says:

      “Sing with joy for Jacob;
      shout for the foremost of the nations.
      Make your praises heard, and say,
      ‘LORD, save your people,
      the remnant of Israel.’
      8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
      and gather them from the ends of the earth.
      Among them will be the blind and the lame,
      expectant mothers and women in labor;
      a great throng will return.
      9 They will come with weeping;
      they will pray as I bring them back.
      I will lead them beside streams of water
      on a level path where they will not stumble,
      because I am Israel’s father,
      and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

      10 “Hear the word of the LORD, you nations;
      proclaim it in distant coastlands:
      ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
      and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
      11 For the LORD will deliver Jacob
      and redeem them from the hand of(Jeremiah 31:7-11) That is just a sampling of the many incredibly accurate prophecies which have come to pass Mitten.

  2. salvage says:

    >and had been scattered to the ends of the earth,(as prophesied) came back into being, exactly as he biblical prophets foretold

    So that means what? Why does your god need mortal geo-political events to do stuff?

    And I don’t think your god actually gave Israel to anyone, pretty sure it was the British and the UN that did that and what they actually did was let the Jews go to Israel to fight the people already living there for it. Countless innocent lives were lost on both sides and the fallout from the conflict is still causing misery today.

    Is that really what your god does?

    • billrandles says:

      Salvage, what you or I think about it is irrelevant. The Hebrew prophets predicted the resurrection of Israel as a nation, it happened almost two thousand years later. God uses all human events for his name and glory. The same God will keep his promises about judgment, heaven and hell, and yes to Israel he said “I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you.”

      • salvage says:

        I replied to this but it seems to have been deleted? Try again:

        >Salvage, what you or I think about it is irrelevant

        No, thinking is always relelevent.

        >The Hebrew prophets predicted the resurrection of Israel as a nation,

        But it took 2,000 years? Why so long?

        >God uses all human events for his name and glory.

        Why does a god have to use anything mortal to do anything? Isn’t it all powerful? And in the case of Isreal it’s taken a chain of violent events to make it happen where countless innocent people died. Is your god a war god? How is all that bloodshed “glorious”? Couldn’t your god have made it happen without all those people suffering and dying?

  3. Wayne says:

    The prophecy of Zechariah from Chapter 8 verse 12 about His chosen people
    …………… I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.
    13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong .
    14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath , saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:
    15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.
    16 These are the things that ye shall do ;
    Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:
    17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate , saith the LORD.

  4. Maureen Leigh says:

    Our God is the only God, in actual fact. A God Who has sent His only Son to pay for your sins upon the cross of Calvary.
    He loves you. Salvage. Just as He loves me. His nature is Love.
    He chose Israel to show His love to the whole world, so naturally He will not allow Israel to be alone in her distress. I am still learning about my God and His plans for us, so I don’t know everything, but I do know that all the prophecies up to this present time have come about. Read Isaiah 9, Isaiah 53, and many more. Search the Scriptures for yourself, and I suggest John’s gospel is a good start.
    Jesus is alive!

    • salvage says:

      >A God Who has sent His only Son to pay for your sins upon the cross of Calvary.

      That makes no sense at all, let’s set aside the reversal of cause and effect and to ask the simple question what did this “Son” pay with? His life? Well no, from what I understand of the story Jesus gets to come back to life so what Jesus did for stuff I hadn’t done yet is have one really bad day and then a three day nap and then he comes back says goodbye to his friends and flies off to heaven.

      Wow. Some sacrifice you even say he’s alive!

      No, there are no such things as gods, what you believe to be real is a myth from the Bronze Age. I hope one day you understand that, it doesn’t really make life any easier but truth is always more important than comfort.

      Well not for all perhaps.

  5. Karen says:

    Thank you for your blog. We will need all wisdom from our Lord and Savior in the coming days of all the world’s political and social diseases that are influencing our nation and people of faith. The more I read and pray the more I come to see us in the last days before “The Day of the Lord”. I thank you for your effort to supply us with your knowledge and keep us knowing that there are many of us who still believe and follow our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and look forward to His return while we must remain here on earth and still seek to be His representatives to others.

  6. jay martin says:

    No prophecy ever came true? You my friend come to a Christian forum not to read, learn and grow but to ignorantly bash those who love Jesus Christ. Do you know that you are fulfilling prophecy? Let’s read and understand about scoffers in the last days.

    “First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers [empaiktes] will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat” (2 Peter 3:3-12).

    But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers [empaiktes] who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear–hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy– to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen (Jude 1:17-25).

    No such thing as God? Poppycock!
    “WHY DOES THE UNIVERSE HAVE RULES IT DOES, OPERATING ACCORDING TO PARTICULAR DIAMETERS AND PARAMETERS IT HAS. SCIENTISTS HAVE DETERMINED THAT IF ANY OF THE MANY FORCES WERE TO BE CHANGED INFINITESIMALLY – GRAVITATIONAL, NUCLEAR OR ELECTRO – WE WOULD NOT HAVE THE UNIVERSE, LIFE, WE WOULD NOT BE HERE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW. WHAT’S YOUR EXPLANATION AS FOR WHY WE LIVE IN SUCH A FINE TUNED UNIVERSE? ONE WOULD THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE A “FINE TUNER”.
    DARWINISM IS HOPELESS HERE, AS IT DOES NOT DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR THE UNIVERSE, BUT TRANSITIONS OF LIFE, SO WHAT IS YOUR THEORY?”
    -Dinesh D’Souza

    • salvage says:

      Yes, that’s a silly theory and Dinesh D’Souza is a silly man and why not look at it the other way? Not that the universe was made for us but rather we were made because of the universe. That life was inevitable because it’s so perfectly “tuned” and that’s not quite true, most places in the universe are lethal to life, heck there are parts of this planet where that is true but in some of them life clings in meagre existence.

      At any rate even if it was made by some sort of god what makes you think it’s yours? The Egyptian gods are thousands of years older than the one you worship.

  7. Maureen Leigh says:

    Why, if you say there are no gods, are you then saying my God may be a war god?
    I’m not sure that you don’t believe in some god after all…
    Let me explain this one last time. We are sinners, unable to help ourselves to stand sinless before a Holy God. OK ? So God Himself (Triune, Father Son and Spirit ) sent His Son to be born as a Jew and live a sinless life, then to die bearing all sin in His body. He who knew NO SIN became sin…. for us. So anyone who will accept this and have Jesus as Lord and Saviour is totally forgiven and able to live a new life.
    Oh by the way, salvage, He laid down His life and was able to take it up again, so yes, He is alive. I hope this makes it a bit clearer; some people need a bit of help to understand things, but the scripture does say that unless one is born again one cannot see the Kingdom.
    … Once I didnt

    • salvage says:

      >Why, if you say there are no gods, are you then saying my God may be a war god?
      Well because of the way it seems to use war as a means to its ends. This has nothing to do with the gods existing but merely an observation of your beliefs and what they suggest.

      I can believe that Star Trek isn’t real while still observing that Picard is a captain.

      >I’m not sure that you don’t believe in some god after all…

      No, there are no such things as gods, I’m as certain of that as I am of the sun rising tomorrow.

      >Let me explain this one last time.

      Yeah, see that’s some of the contradictions I’m talking about.

      Let’s say that the whole sinner thing is accurate, we were made by your god right? Along with every single molecule of reality? Made by a god who is all knowing all seeing, that is it can see the future, past and present with equal clarity and precision. So that god must have made whatever it is that you call sin because it made everything so your god is blaming its creation for behaving in the exact way it must have know it was going to behave.

      So to solve this problem (that your god made) it sacrificed itself to itself and created a new religion (based on older pagan ones) that has not stopped sin in any way. People are essentially as good and bad as they have always been.

      Now because none of it makes any sense and is rife with elements of the supernatural and mytholgy it’s all but impossible to believe in it being true.

      >Oh by the way, salvage, He laid down His life and was able to take it up again, so yes, He is alive.

      So what was the point in Jesus dying if he didn’t die? Why did Jesus vanish in the exact same way a dead person would? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for after Jesus came back to reveal himself to the people, Jewish leaders and Romans? Wouldn’t that have established his divinity beyond any doubt and ensured that his religion would spread by peace and truth right then and there rather than by more war some 300 years later?

      > I hope this makes it a bit clearer;

      No, it doesn’t, it’s pretty much impossible to make it clear no matter how you look at it, it makes no sense at all and thus a very simple and sensible thing to disbelieve.

      • Maureen Leigh says:

        In that case I have no more to say to you because you seem to argue for things you don’t understand and against God who you will not even investigate by reading His Word.

        I hope you will find a way out of your selfimposed prison one day.

  8. salvage says:

    >In that case I have no more to say to you because you seem to argue for things you don’t understand and against God who you will not even investigate by reading His Word.

    Well no, I have “investigated” your god, hence the questions on the facets of it that don’t make any sense to me. Why don’t you just answer my questions (or tell me why they’re wrong to even ask) and then I’ll understand.

    >I hope you will find a way out of your selfimposed prison one day.

    Well if you think not believing in your god is a “prison” (I’m not sure I understand how that is) it’s not self-imposed, you god doesn’t make any sense and there is no evidence for its existence so it’s not much of a choice. I can no more choose to believe in your god than I can choose to believe the Moon to be made out of cheese.

    • Maureen Leigh says:

      Well Salvage, you have chosen; I also have chosen; I chose life in Jesus, you remain blind.
      People here try to lead you into the light of His truth and you talk about an “it”
      It’s not a burden to try and explain, but at the same time you have admitted you have chosen not to believe, so there is nothing else I can say.
      I will not reply to you any more. It is obvious the moon isnt made out cheese, it’s also obvious you like arguing for the sake of it.

      • salvage says:

        Well like I said it’s not really a choice, your god doesn’t really make much sense, hence all my questions that you won’t / can’t answer. If you, or anyone could answer them I’d be more inclined to believe.

        And I’m not arguing, I’m asking questions, it’s weird that you can’t tell the difference.

  9. Wayne says:

    Proverbs 3:5-8
    (5) Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
    And lean not on your own understanding;
    (6) In all your ways acknowledge Him,
    And He shall direct your paths.
    (7) Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    Fear the LORD and depart from evil.
    (8) It will be health to your flesh,
    And strength to your bones.

  10. Karen says:

    Salvage,

    You have put up so many questions, it is pretty hard to answer them all (specially as some of them are “biggies” like the existence of evil. I wish we could chat over a coffee because that would make it easier to cover more of what you are asking.

    I admit that there are questions I can not answer about how mankind was created perfectly, and then became corrupted by evil, but I believe what the Bible teaches is true, that God gave us a choice, (and that somehow in a way that we dont’ comprehend He could do this because He is God) and we blew it. Do you have a better explanation for evil? I have never found one. In particular I have never found a better solution for MY evil, which is really what is most pertinent to me. I find that in my heart, I am selfish, prideful, impatient, short-tempered, etc. (gosh, don’t you wish you knew me personally?) I realize you don’t agree and this all sounds like nonsense at this point (to you, not to me), but I have found in Christ forgiveness for sin (evil) in myself and I have found a power to begin to overcome sin’s power over me.

    You seem like you don’t know anyone who knows Jesus Christ and has had a transformed life… I could tell you that He is transforming mine, but that would be my say so. Why would you believe me, I guess? I will pray that God will send a person your way who knows Jesus Christ and loves Him, so that you can see God’s love in that person.

    In the meantime, I will ask you… what do you do with evil? how do you explain it or try to overcome the power it has over you? You write “god” without capitals, does that mean you do not believe God exists or do you believe God is an impersonal force?

    There are many prophecies that have been fulfilled, and the prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament are the best example. Since the Dead Sea scrolls date to aprx. 200 years prior to Jesus, every single Old Testament prophecy about him has been proven to have been made BEFORE He came. Just something to think about… 🙂

    May God send someone to have coffee with you and answer your questions.

  11. salvage says:

    >God gave us a choice, (and that somehow in a way that we dont’ comprehend

    I think that’s another way of saying your god doesn’t make any sense and generally real things always make sense.

    >He could do this because He is God) and we blew it.

    I don’t remember blowing anything, when did this happen?

    >Do you have a better explanation for evil?

    Sure, human beings can be greedy, selfish, frightened, angry, insane and do things based on those awful impulses.

    Also, you ever watch nature shows? I’m a big fan and I was watching this one following a troop of chimps, they come across some monkeys and start chasing them. At first this was hysterical to watch, them jumping tree to tree, dodging like ninjas at one point a monkey did a classic grab and release on a branch smacking the pursuing chimp in the face.

    Then a chimp caught him, took a huge bite out of his neck and threw the half dead monkey to the ground where the other chimps feasted.

    The chimps is our closest living genetic cousin and I think that explains a lot about evil.

  12. Karen says:

    Hey Salvage,

    I appreciate that you narrowed down the scope of the question to that of “evil.” Much easier to work with. 🙂

    Also, very interesting story about the monkeys. It’s short, colourful, … um… memorable but in a disturbing way, and also, it is a great illustration for me to work with. In short, I like it!

    So what you are saying is that you don’t believe God exists in any form. You believe, then, that there really is no such thing as evil or sin. Correct me if I’m wrong in that. I say that because you have used nature as an example and say that we are related to monkeys. Interesting thing about your story is that while the film crew caught those … memorable… moments of chimp behavior on film, they never bothered to call the police and have Mr. Chimp arrested and taken to jail…

    Which is kind of telling. Because we don’t punish Chimps for being chimps and having natural urges that they can not help. We sort of let em off the hook, behavior-wise, because we feel that much of their behavior is not a choice, they are driven by instinct and primal urges.

    And that is one of the huge places your explanation of the world falls apart for me. If we are all just a more sophisticated version of the chimp, then what the heck?? Why do we have jails? If we are living without moral choice, if we are predetermined by our genes and driven by instinct and urges, then really, I can go out and break into your house and steal stuff. (I actually couldn’t, I don’t know where you live and if it was really survival of the fittest, I confess I’m a bit scared you’d come upon me and beat me up.) But ya know, I’m just being hypothetical.

    It is sort of hypocritical to put people in jail for doing what any monkey or chimp would do, namely take the stuff they wanted from any other chimp if they were strong enough to do so. In fact, what moral imperative can you give against one race ruling another, or even driving it into extinction, because it makes perfect sense in a world of rapidly shrinking resources and an ever expanding population… doesn’t it?

    I’m not saying you can’t hold on to moral values if you are an atheist and evolutionist. I’m just saying it is not logical to do so. Your problem with evil is that you defined it away. And if it doesn’t really exist, your way to deal with things like greed, racism, war, etc. well, that gets a bit dicey. That is how I see it. 🙂

    Plus you said you “never blew it.” Really… (that was said sort of skeptical) I realize you were not in the garden of Eden, but are you saying that you are not also selfish? That you never wish evil on people, or lose your temper? Nope, I don’t think you were really saying that. I think you just meant you were there for the start of it all. But you are here NOW…. and what do you do about it when you realize that you have evil inside you? Do you just say “Heck, I’m just an unhappy chimp and now I’ll go and eat a banana.” I personally find that pretty unsatisfying. The thing about forgiveness is that you can never experience it if you can’t even admit you did wrong. And I can promise you, forgiveness is pretty awesome.

    Again I realize my God doesn’t make sense, TO YOU. 🙂 But don’t think I was saying it doesnt’ make sense to me. I said I didn’t understand EVERYTHING. I didn’t say as a whole it didnt’ make sense to me. There is a difference. You don’t understand everything either. Pretty sure. For instance, evolution doesn’t have a workable mechanism. Darwinism doesn’t hold, he didn’t know about DNA when he made his postulations. And saying it was by mutations in DNA, well, that is pretty tenious as a theory… I don’t know alot about DNA myself, I’m not a scientist, but I would say that evolutionist have their hands full just trying to explain the beginning of life. Which is why some of them are now postulating that aliens brought the first simple life forms to earth…

    What I am saying about evolution is that it doesn’t explain everything nicely and neatly either. There are difficulties in explanations there too. They are just of a different nature. Just something to think about.

    Anyway, know what I like about you, Salvage? You are not afraid to ask hard questions and be challenging. I like it. I really need to get some good mental exercise in, some practice explaining what I believe and why I believe it. And I don’t get that too often, not as often as I should. And I appreciate that you are respectful.

    I like it that you are hanging out here in the burbs of Christianity when you obviously disagree with pretty much everything we believe. BUt I am going to warn you about a possible side effect…. I did pray for you last night, and I’m going to pray for you tonight too, because I hope God puts a genuine and loving Christian in your life. And that He will make the truth known to you. And if you keep hanging out on Christian sights and commenting, I’m pretty sure I won’t be the only one praying. And who knows how many people are already praying for you.

    You know what happens to guys who lots of Christians care about and pray for? Nope, wrong answer, it is not that they fall down a well. The correct answer is that God loves that guy, and God is happy when His people pray and He starts working on that guys heart. Pretty soon that guy is showing up a church and asking the best question EVER. “How do I accept Christ as my Savour?”

    I’ll be praying for you! Best wishes.

    • salvage says:

      >Also, very interesting story about the monkeys.

      I can’t remember the documentary, it may have been on of Richard Attenborough’s, his are always great.

      >So what you are saying is that you don’t believe God exists in any form.

      Not exactly, what I’m saying is that there are no such things as gods. For instance if I were to ask you if you believed in Zeus, or Odin or Shiva I would assume you would say no? If I were to list every single god that humans have worshipped over the last 10,000 years (conservative estimates put that number at about 4,000 but if you include demi-gods and prophets that number would probably reach 10,000) you would check the “Never existed box” as well right up until we got to the one that said Yahweh (Aka God) and Jesus (I’m unsure of what sect of Christian you are, some view Jesus as God other as the Son of God and others as both).

      But the point is that your god, God is almost exactly like those other gods that you don’t believe in with a few notable differences:

      1) Your god is one of the youngest, the Egyptians were worshiping a creator god at least 8,000 to 10,000 years ago.

      2) Your god is the one that you were taught was real so you think it’s real. If you were born say 2,500 years ago in Athens you would think Zeus were real along with all those other gods in the exact same way. You would make the sacrifices and pray to him just as you do with your god.

      3) You have exactly the same amount of proof for the existence of your god as other believers have for theirs. This is a pretty obvious sign that religion isn’t real because while the concept of theism in general appears to be universal the specifics never are. In short your god can only go places where people who believe in it go, a rather odd limitation for a powerful being.

      Number 3 was the cause of the first wave of atheism in Europe. See when the New World was found they couldn’t understand why the natives never heard of your god. Even the heathens in the East and Far East knew something of Jesus, how was this possible? One of the more charming theories to come out of Christendom’s finest thinkers was that they were soulless and thus killing and taking their land was perfectly fine. Others decided that they were put there by your god to be converted and saved because… their god couldn’t do it itself?

      But a small but significant percentage realized exactly what it meant and another seed of the Enlightenment was sown.

      So right there, to the independent observer the question is begged, why your god and not someone else’s?

      And my point being that I disbelieve your god for the exact same reason you disbelieve in all those other gods.

      >You believe, then, that there really is no such thing as evil or sin. Correct me if I’m wrong in that.

      Oh of course there is evil, I just don’t think it’s anything supernatural, just human nature warped and corrupted by environment, circumstance and other factors.

      Sin? Well that smacks of the pulpit and I think is more a point of view on certain subjects, sex being one of them.

      >I say that because you have used nature as an example and say that we are related to monkeys.

      Oh I don’t say that, sciences such as biology say that. When you look at the way our DNA is structured and the way a chimp’s is no other possible conclusion can be drawn.

      >If we are all just a more sophisticated version of the chimp, then what the heck?? Why do we have jails?

      You just answered your own question, because we are not chimps, we are more sophisticated beings. Chimps can’t help but be chimps and chow down on the occasional monkey. We have options.

      >If we are living without moral choice, if we are predetermined by our genes and driven by instinct and urges, then really, I can go out and break into your house and steal stuff.

      We are but our DNA coupled with culture has changed our behaviour, civilized us if you will. People still break into houses and steal stuff but our society frowns on that because it’s counterproductive. This was established a long time ago, we have evidence of laws against that sort of thing from at least 8,000 years ago.

      >It is sort of hypocritical to put people in jail for doing what any monkey or chimp would do, namely take the stuff they wanted from any other chimp if they were strong enough to do so.

      It would be if we were chimps but we are not.

      > In fact, what moral imperative can you give against one race ruling another, or even driving it into extinction, because it makes perfect sense in a world of rapidly shrinking resources and an ever expanding population… doesn’t it?

      None, that’s an offence to our culture and society, base survival simply isn’t an excuse, which was established at Nuremberg with “Following orders” not being a defence.

      >I’m not saying you can’t hold on to moral values if you are an atheist and evolutionist. I’m just saying it is not logical to do so.

      And yet I do. The point you are making here is not only an old one but one that is obviously not true. Atheists and “evolutionist” (whatever that is) are not more prone to crime or violence or anything negative. I know there is no Hell waiting for me yet I still live by the golden rule, I know there is no god judging my morality, I maintain it for my own sake because I like me that way as I like other people being that way. I need no carrot or stick to do good or at the very least do no harm, most people don’t.

      >And if it doesn’t really exist, your way to deal with things like greed, racism, war, etc. well, that gets a bit dicey.

      Like I said it exists but it’s nothing supernatural, evil does not exist for its own sake, it’s the result of humans being bad because they’re greedy, frightened, stupid, ignorant, crazy or a mix of that and more.

      >I realize you were not in the garden of Eden, but are you saying that you are not also selfish?

      See that story makes no sense at all, your god was either an idiot or he wanted Adam and Eve to fail. How could it not know what was going to happen? Isn’t it all seeing and knowing? How did the snake sneak in? Why did your god lie when it asked what happened? It didn’t know? Why make something that he doesn’t want people to eat edible? Why not make it the rock of knowledge? The enormous elephant of knowledge? Heck make it into Taco Bell if you don’t want anyone to have it.

      Because it’s a myth and it’s an old one, older than the Bible, in fact the first version is a combination of Adam and Eve and Noah’s Ark. After the fruit is eaten the god floods the Earth in anger trying to kill everyone before they get smart.

      >That you never wish evil on people, or lose your temper?

      Of course I do! I’m a human being, it’s what we’re know for. But thoughts, like wishes and emotions are only part of the puzzle, it’s what we do with and in reaction to them that counts.

      Have I ever done anything so bad that someone needs to be nailed to a bit of wood over it? If so I can’t imagine what.

      >For instance, evolution doesn’t have a workable mechanism.

      It most certainly does. Have you ever read anything about evolution?

      >Darwinism doesn’t hold, he didn’t know about DNA when he made his postulations.

      And he said as much several times but he predicted, successfully, that there was such a thing.

      >And saying it was by mutations in DNA, well, that is pretty tenious as a theory…

      No it’s not, it a proven theory, from fruit flies to human babies being born “defective” we know that DNA on occasion gets it wrong, it doesn’t unzip right, a bit gets misplaced or warped and most of the time it doesn’t change anything, some of the time it’s a disaster but on occasion, once in a blue moon the change is beneficial to the creature in its environment and the first tiny step towards a new species is taken.

      >I don’t know alot about DNA myself, I’m not a scientist,

      Nor am I, I am a sceptic and at one point I was much like you in that I didn’t believe evolution to be true because I didn’t understand it. The butterflies with wings that look just like a bird’s face was my stumbling block. How could that happen? Then I started reading on the subject and the answer is so eloquent it could be nothing but the truth. I urge you to read up on it, it’s an amazingly cool world.

      > but I would say that evolutionist have their hands full just trying to explain the beginning of life.

      They certainly would be considering evolution says nothing about how life started. No one knows, just theories right now.

      >Which is why some of them are now postulating that aliens brought the first simple life forms to earth…

      They are not. What you are refereeing to is that awful “Expelled” movie that selectively edited an interview with Richard Dawkins.

      There is as much evidence for alien creating life as there is for gods doing it, that is none at all.

      >What I am saying about evolution is that it doesn’t explain everything nicely and neatly either.

      It does explain how life evolved from a simple life form to a complex one and is supported by biology, geology and astronomy and it’s as nice and neat as you like, so much so it’s proven.

      While I appreciate the motivation behind your prayers for me it’s that sort of thing that makes your god even less likely to exist. What would an all knowing and powerful god need prayer for? Are you telling your god something it does not know? Are you giving it guidance? Direction? An order?

      Prayer, like all aspects of theism, falls apart when you look at it with any sort of critical thinking.

      But in return I hope you read more on the subject of evolution and the history of your religion and find out where the truths lie.

  13. Karen says:

    Whoa, Salvage, don’t hold back now! Please, have a bit of mercy on me, one thing at a time! I’ll never be able to respond to you in just one post… 🙂

    So, while I’d love to chat with you about the difference between my beliefs about God and that of others, I think that can of worms will be way to huge for me in just one evening. Can I postpone that?

    I do have to say that you can be pretty funny. I actually did laugh when you asked why God didn’t create the “rock of knowledge of good and evil.” Very sly. Still, I think you likely do know what my answer would be to that… don’t you? If you sincerely do not, I can definately go into it for you, but again, I think I’ll postpone that. I can only cover so much in the time I have.

    Once again, let me say as clearly as I know how I NEVER said that atheists are not moral. Or altruistic, or kind, or love babies, or work for human rights, etc, etc. What I said was that you had no real logical basis for much of morality. And frankly, you didn’t prove to me that you did. What I read you as saying was that you had a practical basis for morals. That is not the same thing. Because as I pointed out, many, many times what is practical would be something that many humans find distasteful or wrong. Again, I am sure that you are a really nice person. That is not what I am saying. I’m sure that you are as nice and as kind as you can be, and even without the threat of hell.

    But there are many people who are not so … and if you are only practical about it, I don’t see you have much to convince me that we should live to some “higher standard” than monkeys. In fact, animal societies work really well, and with a lot of stuff that we would shun. I’m curious, in what way exactly are we better than monkeys? Isn’t it just opposable thumbs and brain power? So where on earth does the idea of what is morally right even come from?

    You sorta hinted evil was environmental in some way. I’m curious about that. Tell me more. I’d like to hear your definition of what makes something evil. And “evil” comes from. At one point you seemed to infer in was something intrinsic to humans, and then another point you made it seem like it came from outside factors. Please explain.

    You know I did ask what your concept of God was, and you didn’t answer, which is why I assumed it was an atheist position. I acknowledge that there are lots of people who have a god concept which is an impersonal force, like Karma. I’m really curious… do you practice mediation or anything like that?

    By the way, I might get interrupted in this and have to come back. But I had a couple things to say to you about evolution, so if I suddenly break off, it was due to other things coming along, and I’ll write more later.

    There was a time that I actually did believe the theory of evolution was true. I was a Christian at the time, I just felt that since scientists said it was true, it must be. I thought that God had just used evolution to make things and that Genesis was the poetic expression of that. There are a lot of Christians who believe this out there. But later I did come to study evolution. I find it wanting as an explaination of life. I am not a scientist by a long shot, and I confess that was a long time ago. Since then life has intruded and I have forgotten more than I currently know. Still, it is not that I have never looked into evolution… you just disagree with my findings… 🙂

    So about my comment about some scientists looking further abroad than earth for the start of life. I actually have never heard of the program you mentioned…. sorry. My comment was due to other articles I have read. I said “some” scientists because I realize not all of them would agree. I found an article for you to read. It is a totally secular article by a guy who is an evolutionary scientist and would disagree with everything I have said. So you know you can trust it. 🙂

    I doubt this comment will let me put up a link, but I have a pretty strong faith in your ability to find it yourself. It is planetsave.com, the guy who wrote it is Michael Ricciardi. The date is March 8/2011. He disagrees with panspermian and/or alien origin hypothesis. But he agrees they are out there, that is what the article is about, though he feels they are on the fringe.

    In fact, what he says about it is this: “The point of all the foregoing is this: because we have this huge question on the origen of Life lingering in the background of the biological sciences, there is also an intellectual vacuum into which all manner of “panspermian” and/or alien origin hypothosis may rush.”

    Which is what I kinda said in my previous post, only I didn’t sound as smart and knowledgable.

    He also said “There’s just one problem… no one has yet demonstrated (complete) biogenesis in the lab, nor articulated fully a scientific theory of how living cells evolve from inanimate constituents.” I put that one in there, because I just wanted to show you I was not off in saying that the start of life WAS part of evolutionary theory. See? He says “living cells EVOLVE from inanimate constituents.”

    Tell me, aren’t you glad I DIDN’T decide to respond to everything? This is already waaaaaay to long. But I got a coupla questions for you. First of all, do you know of any mutations that are beneficial? I have never heard of one yet, so I’m curious if you know of one. Mutations are pretty much mistakes in the genetic code. They are (unless you can show me differently) always harmful. I know that personally. My second child died from a genetic disorder. The good thing about mutations, though, is that the mechanism of cellular reproduction is to prevent them. “Nature” for lack of a better term, works hard to prevent mutations. In fact, many of them are recessive, thankfully. So that my surviving child might be a carrier of the mutation that killed my other child, but it could not hurt him. THere is a protection that recognizes something harmful and chooses the correct information instead.

    Secondly, here is a huge problem that I see with the actual origen of life. I’m going to put it in laypersons terms, cause that is all I know. But I have a funny feeling it was what Mr. Riccairdi was talking about when he said no one has articulated fully a scientific theory…

    You see, the problem is with the three things I see as being necessary for life to be “life.” A living thing must be able to take in and utilize energy. It must be able to reproduce. And usually it must be able to get rid of wastes created in the process. (but I’m willing to toss that one if anyone can show a life form that perfectly uses energy with no waste). In order to take in energy and utilize it, you need some sort of system, even if it is basic. You also need a system to reproduce. And you need both in order to have life. And no scientist can figure out how this could have formed and worked together by natural mechanisms.

    Take for example, a virus. It is the closest thing in existence to a link between life and non-life. But even a virus is complicated. And a virus CAN NOT reproduce unless there is life. With out other life forms, a virus is just an interesting bit of information, floating around all by its lonesome self. A virus has to hack into a living biological system in order to take over it’s energy and systems so that it can get the living cell to reproduce it.

    And all these systems require information. I still say it. Information = intelligence.

    I realize you might not find this stuff compelling. I am banking on it that you have a response for me. And I continue to be grateful. Because you are stretching my brain in ways it has not been stretched in a long time. In fact, the last book I have that critiques evolution was published in 1988. I really need to get some other good books, eh? Anyway, thank you.

    Sorry I couldn’t write more, but we have already taken over this blog post, and the funny thing is, the post isn’t even about creation! So thank you to Pastor Bill Randles! Can’t leave him out, he allows us to dialogue here, and all for free.

    I really hope to be able to write you another time about what I believe, particularly about what I think is different from all other religions. The heart of the gospel so to speak. All I can say about the praying for you part is… wait and see. You have several times touched on a topic in your responses which is the tension between omnipotence and free will. Huge topic. I think even though I sense you will vehemently disagree with everything I say, that you would find a discussion about that interesting. Hope so anyway. And will also be praying for you tonight. Peace be to you, my debating partner.

  14. Jay Martin says:

    Pastor Randles,

    Always a great pleasure to re-read your posts, particularly as we inch closer to the glorious day of Christ’s return to make it all right.

    While I understand the purpose of this prophetic event happening to (and for) the Jews, I wonder what can be said of prophecy coming to fruition in the modern day, for the rest of the world who is watching? As you may know this prophecy has received wide attention throughout the web, in forums, Youtube, and even some in the main stream media. Is prophecy to encourage the believer who is not yet swayed by the message of salvation, and perhaps to provide further solid evidence to substantiate the Bible as God’s living word, showing the unbeliever that God’s word is real and relevant? As it seems we are getting closer, is it the duty of the believer to share this prophecy with everyone as a sign to aid in their belief? Sadly, I find that even with proof of prophecy in the modern day people STILL choose to disbelieve and that’s unfortunate and sad. Lastly, what will happen after these events? Will things quickly deteriorate in the world? In your words, what can the unbeliever do to be saved from whatever comes after this, and to escape the coming tribulation which will be worse than this? Thank you and God Bless

    Marantha.

  15. Pingback: Russia Muscles in…Syria In Prophecy…Armeggedon pt 1 | Pastor Bill Randles Blog

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