Iron Sharpening Iron ( David N and Jacob P )…


Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.   (Proverbs 27:17)


I have not been eager to enter into the very public differences between two men whom I very much admire, Jacob Prasch and David Nathan. Over the years, I have gained much from my interaction with these two men, and even now that there is a disagreement between them, I believe that we can all benefit if we see this as a “teachable ” moment.

Because Truth (with a capitol “T”) is important, it doesn’t surprise me that we find ourselves here. There are some things very much worth arguing about, we cannot compromise on issues of Salvation, the nature of God and Christology, nor can we agree to disagree. It is right to have differences and to seek to hammer them out.

Obviously  we would hope that the argument could be conducted in a fair and generous manner, but we are all flawed vessels, so lets try to look past the personal things and focus on the actual issues at hand. Both David and Jacob have stressed that they have a high regard for each other. I believe that they really do, they both said so. We should take them both at face value when they insist that this isn’t personal and go on to the actual issues being contested.

As far as I can tell the most significant problematic issue is David’s teaching about the nature of Millennial sacrifices. David has said that in the Millennium, “the blood of Jesus isn’t going to do anyone any good at all”,*  And it seems that He is teaching that those who turn and are  faithful to the LORD during the Millennium are not saved by the blood of Christ, but their sins are atoned for by sacrifice in the Millennial Temple.

It sounds like David’s teaching is that the entire sacrificial apparatus will be re-instituted and will be effectual in the Millennial age. I may be wrong and hope David clarifies himself. Here is a quotation from a clip of David’s teaching , as republished by Jacob recently,

“There will come a time when the grace of God comes to an end. For the Gentile mind it is difficult to conceive of,  for you have been brought up in a Church culture which says that the blood of Jesus Christ is eternal to save mankind for eternity. It is not a biblical concept it is a gentile concept not a biblical one…The blood of Jesus will save until the end of the age of Grace,whn the age of Grace comes to an end, the blood of Christ will not profit anyone!

During a Q/A at out church, Believers In Grace, David made the following points, when asked if people could be saved in the Millennium;

*Christ comes for his Bride (before the Millennium)

* There is only One Bride (Saved by the blood of Jesus)

* There will be people who turn and are faithful to the LORD during the Millennium,  and “We Know that their sins are atoned for,hence  animal sacrifices…”.

It could be that David is being awkward in his speech, and or lending himself to some kind of misinterpretation, perhaps he has a satisfactory answer. But it sure looks like he is attributing saving efficacy to the blood of animals during the Millennium. David Nathan insists that those sacrifices offered by Levites in the Millennial temple are not commemorative. So what are they?

This is no trivial issue, for it is about the nature of salvation, and involves the Blood of Jesus, who “washed us from our sins in His own blood”. Most people involved in this debate do not plan on waiting for the Millennium to be saved, but that doesn’t mean it is a meaningless argument.

Personally I see why Jacob is troubled by what looks like a deviance from the doctrine of salvation. Does David Nathan believe that the blood of animals will be the means of atonement in the Age to come, and not the blood of Jesus?  Brother Nathan, my friend I hope you clarify your teaching and satisfy us that that is not your position.

We who love both men are in a conundrum only on the issue of how the matter was handled, because there is disagreement between them about that. People can disagree about those kind of details without having to assume one is lying and the other is not, we are all human and have different ,limited perspectives, confusion is always a possibility. I will let that be an issue between Jacob and David.

As far as so many of us who have left the apostasy, and have been fed in the wilderness by the likes of David Nathan, Jacob Prasch and others, I don’t see this argument as being problematic. (Unless it becomes a personal thing).

We thank God for our teachers, who have certainly been gifts to us in these dark days, but we do not follow man! Not any man! Both Jacob and David believe, rightly that you are to be Bereans, and to be proficient enough in scripture to decide for yourself who to believe. No one is ever far from defection, we must cling to Jesus and pray for those who teach and preach. It is normal to have to have our teachings criticized, as James says, “Let us not be many teachers brothers, knowing we shall receive the greater condemnation”.

David and Jacob, I welcome any input and dialogue for the edification of all.




  • I cautioned my friend David about that quote, warning him that such a statement was shocking to the sensibilities. He wrote back saying my point was well taken.
This entry was posted in Church, Uncategorized and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

54 Responses to Iron Sharpening Iron ( David N and Jacob P )…

  1. Severiano says:

    But doesn’t David’s quote border on heresy?

  2. billrandles says:

    I am still offering him a chance to clarify himself, but if it is indeed a teaching that salvation could come by any other way than by the blood of Jesus, yes it would be heretical. I believe in really giving people every chance to back out of poorly communicated words if that is the case…

    • kim segar says:

      Blessings Bill, I love your web and find it very true to G-d’s Word. for me, for years the churches and many still do are ignoring what Paul teaches in Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11. Many churches think they have replaced the Jews. They are saying that they are little gods. but not with a bi G…. but we shall rule with the Jews as Kings and Priests. In Romans 11 Paul lets us know that ALL ISRAEL will be saved. and Paul lets us see where G-d blinded the Jews so that us heathen would have the power to become sons of G-d. so that is where they think we are little gods.. to me, a great apostasy. and going to Zech 12 , 13 and on.. It says when I stand on the Mt of Olive, I will bring up the dead, give them a new heart and they will look upon the L-rd like for a first son, and bow. Ist says, in the same place how all Israel will be saved. there are other scriptures that say, , Christ talking… not for your sake Israel but for MY NAME sake, all Israel will be saved. I see when He went to the c ross the Jews did not believe HE was Messiah. but we read and know He took the Jews out of death and took them to heaven, as He knew they did not believe who He was as HE had blinded them. but also forgave the sin as they had used the animals in obedience thinking that was the way. Every time I hear people hate the Jews, makes me ill. they don’t see where because of obedience G-d called them righteous. We see millions of Jews going home as G-d wanted that and they are becoming saved to realizing the cross and Yeshua blood is where salvation comes into G-d’s Promise. When He took the old testament Jews to heaven, HE also sent about 500 into town to speak and teach salvation. many today are excepting Yeshua did come. when the war starts many more will too. Israel is my heart, and most who really read the bible , will see how it all will end. the love of this world tells us they do not have the love of the Father in them.. Time is all but up for so many, many will have the choice to except HIM in the trib or lose their soul, we know how awful the trib will be. today is the day for Salvation, He is coming very soon, has a time for all things, and we see them fulling scripture quickly. Blessings Joan, correct me if I am wrong..

  3. Stan says:

    I just read David Nathan’s response to Jacob,David and Marco,made my heart sorrow.

    • Liz Walker says:

      This is all very sad and extremely serious for the flock to be troubled with. Mr Nathan has had a lot of influence worldwide, I know he has spoken in the UK. It would be helpful if Pastor Bill could post the link that Stan mentions above concerning David Nathan’s response to Jacob et al as I cannot find it on the internet. I have listened to the video on Moriel however and it is very disturbing as Mr Nathan was very emphatic. Thank you.

      • Maureen Leigh says:

        Try You Tube, a biblical response to David Nathan and his proponents.

      • Liz Walker says:

        Thank you to Maureen but I have already seen that youtube, it is David Nathan’s response to Jacob, which Stan seems to state above, that I cannot find. I am also of the same position as you, Maureen.

  4. Lisa says:

    Hi Bill!
    I’m not sure I understand the debate between the two, since I don’t see Jacob’s side of the issue.

    Maybe you could make your next blog entry about what you believe is the right belief on this issue? Because it seems to me that with Jesus and the martyrs ruling the kingdom there wouldn’t be the grace that’s been given to us now? But maybe if I knew the other side of the argument I could understand the debate better?
    Thank you

  5. Rita Lindhag says:

    Thanks for addressing this Pastor Bill. Well said. I was waiting for input from you. Hard situation, and I am praying for all involved.

  6. Maureen Leigh says:

    My own position is that the blood of Jesus was shed for the remission of sins. This is taught in Scripture. If anything is not taught in Scripture then it can’t be taught.

  7. DMarie says:

    Wow -This is quite something to consider… I do not want to automatically ‘pick a (personal) side here. Whatever is taught in Scripture is what we are to believe – as Bill reminded.

    I do consider Messianic Jewish men to have insight that we gentiles do not.
    And this argument is between two of them – who have both been so instrumental in teaching.
    Both sides need to be considered here – and the Truth needs to be wrestled out.
    No “agreeing to disagree” as it concerns salvation, as has been pointed out above.
    However, for us gentile believers – we KNOW His Blood is our ONLY atonement.
    And, during the current “age of grace” we must stand on that Truth – no discussion.

    I guess my question is this:
    Scripture shows us that there IS currently an age of grace – or “time of the gentiles” as the Word calls it.
    We know that AFTERWARD the LORD deal with “national Israel” (during the Tribulation).
    (I personally do not believe that scripture says gentiles will be saved during that (Tribulation) time, as it has been appointed for God’s dealing with Israel alone (unlike what the Left Behind series would claim).
    It seems that “as a nation”, (those left of) Israel will ALL be saved at the END?
    When they SEE Jesus, their Messiah, return to destroy their enemies – Until then, they will be performing the (OT required) Temple sacrifices?

    Maybe our confusion arises here….
    But we also know that there will be countless martyrs dying during that time – who have been beheaded “for Jesus”… so, are they Jewish people dying for Jesus? OR, are those gentiles who were still alive for some of the Tribulation? I believe they are gentile – I do not think it is Jewish people (saved during tribulation) dying ‘for Jesus’ … but maybe I am not understanding this correctly.

    The “New Jerusalem” then descends down from heaven… ALL things are NEW!!
    (Thank you, Jesus!! Maranatha!!)

    So then – if Jewish individuals had not believed during the “age of Grace” (being re-grafted back into the vine with us gentiles), maybe it is that they (who remain) who will still be ‘under Law/sacrifices’ until they see the physical return of the Messiah and are THEN covered by HIS blood through their faith?

    Can both sides thus be true?

  8. DMarie says:

    Sorry, maybe I should change my last word there ‘faith’ to BELIEF.
    (We, gentiles have faith (cannot see Him, but yet believe).
    Israel will SEE Him, and then BELIEVE.)

  9. DMarie says:

    Sorry again – now I see you are referring to “The Millenial Temple” – (?)
    not the Temple during the Tribulation…

    But the Word says…

    “I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

    • Isn’t this referring to the new Jerusalem, not the millenium temple, as I understand it the 3rd temple is going to be built and will be the temple into which the antichrist will set up the abomination. I find it all fascinating, but can’t say I’ve cracked it yet!

  10. It’s been my experience, sad to say, that those Christians who teach doctrines that deviate from the ‘faith once delivered’ tend to make light of it when challenged , as if it’s no big deal – we’re either making mountains out of mole-hills because it’s not a ‘salvation’ issue or we’ve misunderstood what they’ve said and they simply carry on teaching it as if everything is fine. They really don’t seem to grasp the importance of what Truth is! In light of their protests that you have got them all wrong, and as a purely lay person, at first you think it is you who is being too picky , so you re-examine everything you believed on the subject … and then you realise that they are not rightly dividing the word and their (mostly) theorising has become truth to them – often ignoring plain and crucial verses in the process! Just my personal thoughts….

  11. midrashcreed says:

    On the surface, this appears to be a yet another brawl between two preachers with oversized egos! it seems to be a case of doctrinal pettiness gone mad. However, IF DN has been reported correctly, IF more than a poor choice of words is involved and IF JP isn’t charging around like a bull in a China shop as he often does, then the underlying issue is very serious for anything that attacks the blood of Jesus emanates from the spirit of anti-Christ. There are no two ways of salvation in God’s Word, only one – through the blood of Jesus who pacified God’s justified wrath against our many sins whilst demonstrating His Holy Love for us.

    At a practical level, what Gospel could we offer if this wasn’t the case? In particular, what hope would it offer to the Muslim Middle Eastern Transwomen (who’s into Rumi Mysticism) I’m due to meet for coffee tomorrow afternoon in a museum cafe? Only a ‘full-blooded’ Gospel can meet their need for redemption. A watered-down version of the Gospel would never do! Too many churches do that already.

    Anyway, all the best in your diplomatic efforts Bill. I don’t envy you! I think I’ll stick with my Rumi Mystics!!!

    • Maureen Leigh says:

      Jacob Prasch is a very caring brother. If he charges round like a bull in a china shop as you put it, it’s because he really cares for the sheep, and he does get angry when the sheep are being led astray. But as far as I am aware, in his anger he does not sin.
      And the Muslim Middle Eastern Transwomen I know zilch about. I don’t even know what a transwoman is. Best wishes if you are telling them the gospel, they need the truth whatever they believe.

  12. DMarie says:

    It seems that our focus must be on the “here and now” – what the TRUE gospel IS, and sharing it with others before it is too late. Things that will happen during the future Millenium may just be too much for us to comprehend at this point, as well as unnecessary for the work we are called to do NOW while it is still day… teaching people of all nations TODAY to obey/love Jesus our Savior. We must remain strong in what the Lord has called us to do – perfect understanding will come when we see Him. Maranatha!!

  13. standingfirm says:

    Nothing but the blood of Jesus. DMarie you said it well. “perfect understanding will come when we we see Him”. I could not agree more.

  14. midrashcreed says:

    The two-hour session with the Middle Eastern Transwoman from a mystic Muslim background went very well. After hearing their life story with its war’s and family rejections, our conversation moved on to spiritual matters. I was able to witness to the work Jesus accomplished on the cross and give them a Bible that was very well received. Incredible! During our conversation, the Spirit burnt like a fire in my heart and afterwards, I went to a nearby chapel to give thanks for one of the best witness opportunities in my life. Truly, there’s wonder-working power in the blood of Jesus. It can reach out to the most despised and marginalized members of society. I joyfully experienced it as a living reality rather than as a doctrine to be endlessly argued over. One can only wonder whether those who’ve limited have really enjoyed the blessings it can bring.

  15. Jeannette says:

    I too have been concerned about what David said on this subject, which makes no sense to me. But maybe we misunderstood something?

    Whatever the case doctrinally, it seems that personally David is not at fault. I heard today about developments on this matter, which will be seen in due course. A great tragedy but there is nothing chidden that shall not be exposed.

    The Lord is winnowing His people, sifting the wheat from the chaff and even the greatest Bible teachers are not exempt.

    Praying for you, Brother Bill, and all who are trapped in the middle of all this. May GOD get all the glory.

    Even when the Ark of God was captured it was Dagon that fell

  16. Treena Gisborn says:

    I agree that David Nathan’s teaching about the millennium does compromise the gospel, if indeed we have understood him correctly. However, doesn’t Jacob Prasch compromise the gospel when he says there will be “no more grace” during the 70th week of Daniel, and that the Holy Spirit will be taken from the world and the gospel will not be preached during this time? I have asked this question several times and no-one, including JP himself, is prepared to explain intra-seal. Also – and again I am asking a genuine question: Why does Jacob Prasch associate and recognise ecumenist David Noakes as a “prophetic voice”? David Noakes will be a speaker at Moriel’s Scottish conference in November. I know you are a friend of Jacob Prasch, but you should be concerned. As JP says himself “fellowship is doctrinal and not relational..” in other words doctrine comes before relationships. I do hope you will publish this comment as these are important questions? God bless.

    • billrandles says:

      I am a friend of Jaco Prasch, (also of David). You would have to ask Jacob about his doctrine, I no what he believes about the timing of the rapture, but have not heard hm saying “no grace” during the 70th week. The major problem people have with David Nathan’s teaching lies in his alleged assertion that the “Blood of Jesus will not do anyone any good during the Millennium”. I am told David is revising his statement and some other lesser problem statements. I welcome any reader comments….

  17. Treena Gisborn says:

    I see you have not published it Bill. God sees all this hypocrisy and it is in His hands. There will be some very hard questions to answer on the Day of Judgement. May the Lord lead you to do the right thing. God bless you.

  18. Treena Gisborn says:

    Thank you for publishing my comment BIll, it is more than I expected. It is easy to ascertain what JP teaches about grace coming to an end etc. during the 70th week. You will hear him clearly saying these things on the following video “Explaining what happens during the first 3.5 years of the tribulation” He erroneously refers to the first 3.5 years of the 70th week as “tribulation”. In any event, it is only a ten minute video and worth the time to find out exactly what errors he teaches. ..and sharing a platform with ecumenist David Noakes who makes “first person” prophecies? I am glad to hear that David Nathan is revising his teaching. I must say that these errors do not build up my confidence in the teaching of either of these men.. Would you agree that these are fundamental issues? God bless.

  19. Pat and Rebecca says:

    This isn’t about personalities or sensibilities. It is re the biblical truth of the blood of Christ. We consider that Jacob dealt biblically with this αnd specially gave David time and opportunity without allowing personalities and relationships to hinder. We personally feel helped by Jacob in this as he is stating truth of the word and protecting the sheep. We are sure this has personally been very difficult for him, but in being faithful he is reaching out to David to help him not to be in error.

  20. Anne says:

    I would appreciate Pastor Randles thoughts on Moriels latest video about David Nathan.

    I am trying to understand.

    • billrandles says:

      David Nathan is not to be compared with Benny Hinn…he isn’t a false prophet,I don’t think the comparison is fair

    • billrandles says:

      I just saw this Anne, and I do reject the ideas David has about praying into cloth. I am familiar with such teachings having originally come out of the Charismatic movement, as David is currently doing.I do not regard him as being in the same category a Benny Hinn, who is a long time proven false prophet, false teacher, money preacher and exploiter of sick people. David is none of those things. I hope he renounces these teachings and comes completely out of Charismatic excesses, but I do not think comparing him to Benny Hinn is going to help David. Please pray for wisdom for everyone involved. PBR

  21. Liz Walker says:

    You haven’t made a specific comment, Pastor Bill, on what David Nathan was saying and doing.

    Having seen the above you-tube posted by Anne, what David Nathan was saying and encouraging e.g. praying into a cloth for healing, getting people to touch his jacket slung over his shoulder and then endorsing ‘slain in the spirit’, shocks me and is definitely not for me. It may not be exactly what Benny Hinn does but it is approaching very close to it. Kenneth Hagin used to supply these ‘annointed’ prayer cloths back in the 1980s. If it is all OK then maybe I shouldn’t be here….

    Personally, I am completely with Jacob Prasch here. One of these men is right on this issue and one has sadly got it wrong. I think many of the flock are being left very concerned by all this, it would be helpful to have a definitive comment on this blog now that time is going on although of course we all have to discern these things biblically for ourselves.

    • billrandles says:

      Liz I was unaware of the fact that David prays into prayer cloths and ties. Of course I do not accept that , I would love to know when that particular teaching was given, because as I have understood all along, David is a man in transition, coming out of the Word of Faith heresy into orthodoxy. I still do not regard him as being in the same category as Benny Hinn, a longtime false prophet, money preacher, someone who curses and threatens his enemies, and who has heaped the true church with sham and reproach through his circus act. David is none of those. It takes time to get bad doctrine ou, and prayer and patience could go along way in helping David.

      On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 3:00 AM Pastor Bill Randles Blog wrote:


      • Liz Walker says:

        Pastor Bill, I can only note that on the Moriel video, posted by Anne, David appears to be preaching about a ‘healing jacket’ in a church with purple curtains behind him and standing at a lectern with an open-winged bird on it. We can all see that but cannot tell where that church is (not necessary to know anyway) or on what date he was preaching (an important fact as you point out). I do believe that Jacob should have referenced the date underneath his video.
        However, David has posted himself speaking at the same church, on his own Bread of Life you-tube channel and wearing the same shirt, dated September 27th 2018 as part of a series called “‘Believers Spiritual Authority – Part 5 – Establishing Your Authority”.
        This does not prove anything, might not be the same series, but is nevertheless concerning.
        I am not going to say anymore or post the link – it can be easily seen for oneself on David’s own channel. Neither I am going to contact Moriel and ask Jacob Prasch for the date but hope that perhaps you will feel it right to do this at some time.
        Was even right to engender this thread while still waiting for David’s response. it is not for me to say further.
        I do agree that ‘it takes time to get bad doctrine out’, (applies to all of us with me included doesn’t it), but maybe not right for David to have such a high profile international ministry of teaching at the same time. It seems misleading….
        That’s enough from me, I have said enough. May the Lord in His loving mercy be over all this controversy to bring about His truth.

      • Maranatha! says:

        What is so disturbing about all of this is that, David Nathan said he left the Pentecostal Charismatic movement some years ago, but he still holds to some of their erroneous teachings? And is teaching them to others? That he re-posted the video of 11 years ago just this year in Jun/July – 2018!, about praying over a cloth/tie and teaching that “did you know you can pray over a cloth for the anointing to heal..”, this is very problematic coming from someone who is in the position of teacher of God’s Church. That Moriel put him in the position they did in South Africa, and endorsed his teachings when in fact, they didn’t even know what his doctrinal beliefs were! Nor did they discern his fitness to teach correctly, it would seem. Shouldn’t that be something any ministry does before endorsing someone to teach and pastor the flock! One wouldn’t employ someone in the world to be Manager, or CEO etc., without diligently scrutinizing their qualifications and experience. I’m almost as shocked at that as at the erroneous teaching of David Nathan, and to include the more recent video of him teaching that “God didn’t create anything…Jesus was the Creator”! Shouldn’t leaders/teachers of the flock have to show themselves approved? What I am getting from this whole mess (for lack of a better word), is to look to no man and favor no man, as Paul said regarding Apollos etc., “it was Christ Who died for you….”, and to be like the Bereans; check everything against scripture, if you don’t see it in there or understand it, put it aside and pray, and the Lord will teach us from His Word through His Holy Spirit – who is our Ultimate Teacher anyway. And don’t have ‘favorite’ teachers, because they are all just men used by God, without Him they can do nothing.

  22. Liz I saw the video too; I can’t put David Nathan in the same category as true followers of Jesus. The things he was endorsing were not biblical, not logical and not for me. I have never met him, but some friends of mine have heard what he has said about other subjects, and give him a wide berth since then.

  23. May I say it is possible that Bill hasn’t seen this video, he is a busy man after all; I am sure he wouldn’t agree with what D.Nathan says, it’s unbiblical . I remember Shearman (forgot his first name) throwing his jacket into a crowd at a conference and saying whoever picked it up would be a prophet. Ludicrous!

    • billrandles says:

      Thanks Maureen, you are right, I have inly just now seen videos of David’s cloth prayers, and obviously I do not agree with that. But see the reply I made to Liz for my view on David.

      On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:21 AM Pastor Bill Randles Blog wrote:


  24. billrandles says:

    Pat and Rebecca on September 23, 2018 at 6:01 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    This isn’t about personalities or sensibilities. It is re the biblical truth of the blood of Christ. We consider that Jacob dealt biblically with this αnd specially gave David time and opportunity without allowing personalities and relationships to hinder. We personally feel helped by Jacob in this as he is stating truth of the word and protecting the sheep. We are sure this has personally been very difficult for him, but in being faithful he is reaching out to David to help him not to be in error.

    Kind regards

  25. Treena Gisborn says:

    The verse that has come to me repeatedly all day is — “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.” (James 3:1).

    I do agree with Liz’s comment and in fact I would go further.. David Nathan should not be in the ministry at all if he is in some sort of “transition”. At the same time, no one is saying anything at all about Jacob Prasch’s close association with Issachar Ministries and ecumenical “prophet” David Noakes. I have asked the question several times on my blog: Can a true prophet of God be ecumenical?

    Forgive me for being so blunt Bill Randles. I lost confidence in Jacob Prasch about three years ago due to his false intra-seal teaching which is a denial of the gospel in its own right. He clearly has no interest in standing up for the gospel!

    Servus Christi aka Joshua Chavez (Moriel’s Administrator) has also acted disgracefully in his efforts to discredit John MacArthur. I hate Calvinism and I am no fan of MacArthur, but to deliberately mislead people is to bear false witness – this is unacceptable for a supposed Christian “ministry”.

    MacArthur WILL NOT be “sharing a platform” or “partnering” with the other broadcasters featured in the NRB’s broadcasting as Chavez has stated!

    I am glad these things have come out.. it has exposed who is walking in the light. Hopefully genuine believers will be on their guard against such men.
    God bless.

    • billrandles says:

      Treena I agree with your James 3
      quote. I do not know much about Issaxhar and about Noakes but ifHe is ecumenical it wouldn’t be consistent to stand up on a platform with him, I really don’t know either of hose ministries. I am not Moriel, although I have often worked with Moriel. I cannot speak for Moriel and if there is anything we should all know, I think you should spell it out. I don’t necessarily agree with everything Jacob techies, but as a rule I think his expositions are pretty sound. As for the timing of the rapture, I do not see how the “intra seal” discredits the gospel. have you written about it to explain it?

  26. Treena Gisborn says:

    Jacob Prasch has responded to Todd Friel’s video on the following link:

    Rick Warren IS a heretic… John MacArthur IS a false Calvinist teacher who has stated that people can take the mark of the beast and be saved. All of this is very true.

    The ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM however is Prasch’s association with Issachar Ministries and false ecumenical “prophet” David Noakes who is speaking at Moriel’s Scottish Conference in November.

    The ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM is Prasch’s intra-seal doctrine..
    To paraphrase “there will be no conviction of sin, no Holy Spirit in the world, no church, no gospel, no grace during the 70th week of Daniel.” This is a denial of the gospel and is actually more serious error than David Nathan’s teaching about the millennium because it concerns the end of THIS AGE.

    Prasch will have to pull something better than this out of the hat!

    God bless.

    • I wonder why you deem J.Prasch to be at fault? I have seen your comments and your writings. If you are so faultless why do you use the book of Enoch to “prove” your point? It is not even in the canon of scripture. I am not a scholar, Prasch is. This seems absurd to me, We who have listened to J.P. and learned much from his teaching (and been Bereans by checking what he has said with the Word) and been witnesses of his ire against those who lead the flock astray, unless you clarify what you mean CLEARLY so dumbwits like me can work it out, I will not listen to you again. (read, pay attention, give you any credence, et al. By the way J.P. was the one who warned many many people about the Toronto curse, and certain prominent “leaders”, so I am at least one who owes him thanks. Many good wishes to you, Treena

  27. Lori Gattuso says:


    Not for publication (you didn’t publish my last comment anyway), just for you.

    We have a very small, remote fellowship, and used to enjoy your teachings, as well as David Nathan and Jacob Prasch. But after the last two videos that Jacob made, the first with things taken grossly out of context, the second also out of context and even mocking , we have made the decision not to watch any of Jacob’s videos anymore, sadly, as we had found them so beneficial. I did my homework and watched the videos that Jacob cherry picked to make his points, and if you hear them in their entirety you get an entirely different slant on what David was saying. In the second video, Jacob takes audio clips out of context, combines them with shots of Benny Hinn doing his foolishness with drama music in the background. This is more like something a mentally unstable teenage boy with computer skills would put out, not a mature Christian teacher.

    This public mocking and ridicule has done great damage. I do not know what else Jacob will serve up, and those who support him I now question, as their comments become an echo chamber of what Jacob says, with no one looking at the whole presentation that Nathan made. It made me sick. Literally.

    My husband travels to England often where his company is based, and we had hoped to go to one of the conferences. No more. Mockers do not inherit the kingdom of heaven; what I thought was great teaching must have been just a load of manure with frosting on top. Someone needs to reign Jacob in or God Himself will; I hope you can convince Jacob to stop such things. Perhaps something of what was can be salvaged.


    Lori Gattuso

  28. Pat and Rebecca says:

    Just to say that I can categorically state that David Noakes is not ecumenical and neither is Jacob Prasch. Anyone who states otherwise is obviously not in possession of the facts or is possibly misunderstanding what they have heard or at worst mischievous.

    • Treena Gisborn says:

      Problematically the evidence does not agree with you both. God bles.

      • Maranatha! says:

        Treena do you have something specific to show that Noakes and Hill are ecumenical? I have been searching on line and the best I can come up with is that both men may have some connection to organisations which are ecumenical such as the ‘Hope Together’ organisation et al. I don’t think that is enough to say that they in their beliefs are ecumenical. They may be wrong to affiliate or associate with ecumenical people or organisations etc., but that doesn’t prove without a shadow of a doubt that either man is ecumenical in his beliefs, I don’t believe.

  29. Kate Stevens says:

    Following Bill’s lead, a chap called John Cambridge has just sent a superb Open Letter to David Nathan which, as far as I can see, ends the whole debate:

    Click to access ae0d2a_ee65166dca98475f9169d78602008591.pdf

    • DMarie says:

      Thank you for the link – Wow, that was very well-done!
      None of us are above being deceived now and then – and that is a very solid argument against many false teachings coming forth from DN’s ministry, as well as many others!
      We must be ‘on guard, sober and alert’… remembering that there is “another spirit” and our common enemy prowling around seeking whom he may devour…
      We must NOT live by experiences/feelings…. because the WORD that has been spoken (scripture) is sufficient for ALL Christian practice and The Judge of all. SO VERY sad that many who call themselves Christians are being deceived by spirits that employ strange ‘experiences’ and ‘commands’ that do NOT line up with the Word of God… Oh, Lord – help us. Those who desire and love Truth will be kept safe. Those who do not will be deceived by their choice.

  30. Dennis Marlow says:

    The blood of Jesus is once for all, there is no other way we can be saved. There are a number of issues with David Nathan, even in Kokstad, South Africa, where he was instrumental in breaking up a small fellowship.
    Personally I do not go along with much of his teaching

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.