Why There Is Still A Question… (David Nathan)

In the Summer and fall of 2018, many of us who have been for the most part friends and allies in the Gospel, have been subject to a split, it started out as a very human interaction but I am convinced it morphed into a kind of Satanic attack.

We are the ones who have enjoyed the same circles of teachers, and who in large part have left heretical churches to become a kind of informal, grassroots remnant of believers, kind of like David’s cave in Adullam; we were the outcasts, and those who were moved to seek teaching that was deeper and purer and exempt from the heresies of our day.

But in the events which arose when Moriel ministries separated from David Nathan, and in the various debates which swirled around it, there is no doubt in many of our minds, Satan has been given permission to have us and to sift us like wheat.

I really don’t wish to revisit the secondary controversies about whether or not either party handled the separation properly and had given each other the time and grace to resolve, nor the other further controversies raging around the rhetoric used, this one calling that one’ Ahab’, ‘AntiChrist’, f’alse teacher’, ‘heretic’, ‘religious crackpot’ and worse ephithets..

It wasn’t one-sided either, for the other camp resorted to responding with ‘liar’, ‘mentally ill’, ‘unbalanced’, ‘Spiritual abuser’, and vicious videos were produced and distributed as well, accusing people who tried in good faith to contribute, of being mere ‘spin doctors’, cowards and so forth.

These things have the marks of Satan entering into the congregation and those who resorted to them recklessly (and there have been many on both sides) have yielded to Satan without a doubt. That aspect of these past months deserves serious reflection on all of our parts, for the anger vitriol, accusation and slander which has casually been indulged in by some (certainly not most) has been exceedingly hurtful to our cause.

Temptations and trials neither give us faith, nor do they take it away, they merely show us the reality of our faith and love or the lack thereof. We have all been tried severely friends, God has allowed it.

I have wanted to ‘clear the table’ of all of the obfuscation, argument, accusation and other fleshly manifestation and just simply address the original issue…because there is something about it that troubles me.

In my view, the original issue which triggered all of this boils down to two statements of David Nathan’s;

  1. The blood of Jesus will not profit anyone anything in the Millennium” and the twin statement in which Nathan strongly asserts that the blood sacrifices offered in the Millennium are in no way memorial. In other words, they do not point back to the cross of Jesus, as the Lord’s Supper does.
  2. ” God the Father did not Create anything”...

Since then, David has preached entire sermons, which assure us that he believes that only the blood of Jesus can save people, and that He believes in the power and eternity of Jesus’ blood, and in effect He has bent over backwards to proclaim Orthodoxy as regarding salvation by the blood.

I am glad for that and accept that he believes the right thing about the blood of Jesus in this dispensation. I have been berated by many of David’s friends who have seemingly been baffled, demanding of me,”What more does David have to do to get you to see that he believes in the blood of Jesus just like you do?”

I am compelled to write this to you who feel this way and want an answer.

I have heard David’s sermons about the issue, and have heard him apologizing for having mis-spoke, and He even humbled himself (to his credit) admitting to pride in the way he had spoken. Praise God.

So what is my problem? Why haven’t I ‘forgiven ‘ him? *

My problem is that David has never explained why he said such an outrageous thing in the first place, and I have never heard him once specifically repudiate it.

This is why I have maintained all along that David could have and should have cleared this up immediately. This could have happened in Los Angeles, it would have taken five minutes, unless David really does believe such a thing.

The answer to such a statement is not another sermon or a soft interview which involves a mere confession of the Orthodox doctrine. The outrageous statement needs to either be explained or repudiated.

The same goes for the equally outrageous statement, ” God the Father Created Nothing…” . Yes David I have heard your sermon in which you set forth the doctrine of Christ as the agent of Creation, and I agree with it. All of orthodox Christianity would agree that Christ is the agent of Creation, that is not the issue. Everyone I know would agree with the scriptures you set forth about Christophanies in the Old Testament.But you didn’t clear up the original statement, you doubled down.

But no one I know of except you and perhaps Oneness Pentecostals would then make the leap in logic and assert that since Christ is the agent of creation, then “God the Father Created Nothing…”.

Christ is the agent of Creation, all things were made by him, for him and through him, but it doesn’t follow to say that the Father didn’t create a thing. “Let us make man in our Image…”. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all had a complete part in Creation, it is needlessly provocative to asset otherwise.

David doesn’t repudiate this assertion, he seems to double down on it…that is my nagging problem.

I love David Nathan, his lovely wife and daughter. I have been accused of dragging his name through the mud, harming him, accusing and badgering him and not forgiving him, none of which is true. I haven’t involved myself in the vitriol, I have been slimed myself by people on both sides of this.

My conclusion for my friends who think otherwise is this, “If you don’t have a problem with a minister who says that the blood of Jesus will not profit anyone in the Millennium, ” or perhaps even worse, that there is no memorial aspect to the coming blood sacrifices (This means that there will be sacrifices offered which are not connected in any way to Calvary), go right ahead and do what you are led to do.

Furthermore if you think David N has adequately addressed all of the concerns about his denial that the Father created everything, go for it. I don’t want to fight (except for the truth) . Everyone must do what is in their heart.

I have all kinds of problems with these two issues, but don’t assume I haven’t forgiven or don’t love David Nathan because it isn’t true. I don’t want to belabor the point any more. I am not ashamed to say that I love everyone in this sad spectacle. I am sorry for any I have let down in anyway in this fight. We will have other spiritual fights to come, hopefully not among ourselves.

May God forgive us and truly give us his gift of discernment, because it looks like we are not anywhere near as sharp as we thought we were, nor as Loving. Remember that the balance is Truth and LOVE.

  • This should never have been a mere personal issue. Doctrinal issues are not primarily a matter of forgiveness … they are matters of the determination of truth… One cannot deviate from the doctrine of the blood of Jesus or from the doctrine of the person of Christ or of God and then merely be forgiven. We have to know that we know that our companions in the ministry are Orthodox. (James 3:1)
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23 Responses to Why There Is Still A Question… (David Nathan)

  1. Steve Mitchell says:

    Well said.

  2. April says:

    Amen and Thank You for this letter Pastor it is well needed for clarification.

  3. C Smith says:

    We are to always forgive brothers and sisters ─ but never false doctrine as so often is done!

  4. kim segar says:

    Yes, like the comment ahead of mine, always forgive, but if anyone preaches another gospel, we are to turn away. the great Apostasy is finding its way into so many churches, very sad. and most of them just won’t listen either. I did read one scripture long ago, the bible says, when we think we know it all we know nothing … but to ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and HE will.. Bless you Bill, you did all you could in a loving way, You have it straight, well said and loving, then leave it to Almighty G-d. love you, thank you for all your teachings, precius

  5. Chris saunders says:

    Yes get out and stay out seems to be the way to go, and hope our very gracious God and time will straighten them both out, don’t be tempted to go back to it..ever.

  6. I’m glad you had , and still have, the courage to speak out Pastor Bill. From personal experience and observation of preachers who deviate into alien (to orthodoxy) teachings, they will always claim legitimacy if challenged , for how else would they be so successful in capturing loyal followers? They will claim you’re making a fuss about nothing , or you’ve misunderstood them, and for the most part , other Church leaders , out of naive love and loyalty will accept their word and not challenge them. Which is exactly how the Church has got in the terrible apostasy it’s in now! There’s a sort of protectionist mentally among them I believe, and boy, does the old devil love that!
    So keep following your conscience Bill and fight the good fight. Of course you will suffer for it , but God is faithful to His word and those who truly follow it.

  7. DN doesn’t need our forgiveness, he needs God’s forgiveness, in this issue.
    He needs to understand that words are very important, as do any of us that speak or write publicly. If we mis-speak, we need to be humble enough to admit wrong. And accept admonishment from those that bring it to our attention.

  8. Sharon Nordstrom says:

    Dear Pastor Randles,

    You have been accused of not loving David Nathan or FORGIVING him.

    I’m unclear of what you need to forgive him for? Personal slanders against you? Okay, I can get that. But for you pointing out his false teaching? No, I don’t think so.

    (If people had spoken up about William Branham, right away, maybe we wouldn’t have so many people being caught up in the “signs and wonders” movement? I know saved Christians who are being fooled by Bill Hamon and company. God help us all from these deceivers.)

    Frankly, for you to be so open about all this is a blessing to me. I had a similar experience on a much smaller scale. Leaving an apostate church isn’t a guarantee that joining a smaller group of faithful Christians is going to be any different. They can be deceived also.

    We’re all learning valuable lessons. Tiring…

    Sharon Nordstrom ________________________________

  9. DMarie says:

    We must know that our companions in ministry are both orthodox – as well as (truly) loving.
    A bad tree bears bad fruit – and Jesus said, ‘by their fruit we will know them’.

    None of us are beyond being deceived now and then – as you often point out, Bill.
    To realize that is to our great benefit. It has happened to me. It keeps us humble if we receive our correction with gratitude to the one bringing it to our attention.

    The ‘errant doctrine’ is surely of great concern – but not as great as the lack of repentance for the errors, and the lack of love shown by the other 2 ministers. I personally cannot submit myself to teaching given by men who do not love. How can I listen to someone who does not have the love of God in him?

    Praise the Lord, I believe He exposes these things for the good and protection of His dear sheep.

    “Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” and “If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.”

  10. anne says:

    Since I’m a fairly new believer, I went to Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s book, ‘The Footsteps of the Messiah’ page 113 where he is quoting Thomas Ice. “The atonement is specifically directed at cleansing the altar in order to make it ritually fit for sacrifice. The only other uses of atonement also refer to cleansing objects so that ritual purity may be maintained for proper function of further worship (Ez. 45:15, 17,20)…Since all the sacrifices of Ezekiel relate to purification of the priests for Temple service, they do not specifically depict or represent Christ’s atoning sacrifice.” Previously Arnold said, “The Old Testament saint was saved by grace through faith. The blood sacrifices were the means of restoring fellowship of the Mosaic saint who sinned. In this age, fellowship for the believer is restored by confession (1 John 1:9). The millennial sacrifices will not take away sin either, but they will be the means of restoring fellowship for the millennial saint who sins.” further…therefore the sacrifices will be for the cleansing of ceremonial uncleanness.” All I got to say is maybe for those who know not the teaching it might be beneficial for Bill Randles to teach his view about this time in the millennial kingdom. Prasch himself has regarded Arnold’s books as good and has referred people to him.

  11. Greg J says:

    15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. Psalm 51

    2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years. Malachi 3

    7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. 8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. 9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever. 10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. Ezekiel 43

  12. Tammy K Robison says:

    Well said. 1st. Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

  13. A bit Ironic I think, that David preaches often against the “heretic” who believes that the eternal Blood of Jesus is eternally able to redeem, even possibly after taking the mark of the Beast. Jacob on the other hand, you could say believes that the Blood of Jesus will profit you nothing once you have received that mark. There will be no salvation for anyone who has received the mark and you cannot be redeemed. So much for the eternally powerful blood of Christ??

    I talked in length to a pastor recently who defends Jacob on all counts and told me John Maccarthur and David Nathan are both Heretics who must be cut ties from. I explained John had stated his view in a question and answer session and that he stated it was his opinion as he believes the blood of Christ can redeem you from serving the world.

    So i am to believe you can live your whole life as a respected Christian, child of God, pastor, family man, husband, and if one statement having to do with end time theology, stated as opinion, can be so unforgivable that you should be severed from all christian support and admiration and you are to be cast off into heretic land never to be respected again?

    I asked the Pastor, what about all the other parts of living the christian life which are equally important? What about when Jesus tells us that when we get to the gates that his big question will be did we show love to the poor and hurting? Did we cloth them, did we feed them and give them drink?

    What about verses like

    Ephesians 4:29
    29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

    Exodus 23:1

    1 “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness.

    James 1:26

    26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

    Colossians 3:8
    But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.

    1 Peter 2:1
    Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

    Leviticus 19:16
    ‘You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the LORD.

    if we don’t control our tongues our religion is worthless it says, the bible is clear this is no secondary matter. In fact it may be the actual mark of the state of your heart, the way we speak of our brother and hold peace between his body.

    And we want to elevate eschatological theology above what Christ came here to do and teach us to do. To love, to serve, to be humble, and to correct in love and humility.

    Jacob has applied psalm 49:1 to himself, putting himself in the place of Jesus and putting David Nathan in the role of Judas who lifts his heel at Jacob. He said David “shovels manure and presents it to be ice cream”. HE calls David “alexander the Coppersmith” who did great harm to Paul. He has called The Menelaws “ahab and Jezebel.

    This is no secondary issue brothers, the words we speak about our brothers, the names we call, the failure to love each other especially when the other party has meant us no harm, it is most certainly revealing a deep and very serious issue of the Heart. Consider that before we judge people for end time theological issues of which we most likely won’t even be alive to see come to pass. Let us remember what Jesus commands us to focus on in life, in serving, repenting, searching our own hearts for evil, and only correcting brothers in love, privately if possible. We can’t simply blame this all on Satan’s hands causing division we have to own responsibility in this ordeal and realize that Satan can only use us when we allow him to. And if we have we need to repent immediately, make peace with each other and for those who refuse to bring peace and healing to the body, we indeed must separate from if necessary.

  14. Jeannette Parry says:

    Dear Pastor Bill

    Thank you for this message, it helped to clarify why there ARE still questions. I had the impression that David Nathan had explained what he actually meant by the points under dispute, and wasn’t nearly as far in error as he might have seemed.

    However, I just listened to the second of Jacob’s talks at the Scottish conference last autumn and can’t make sense of something he said near the beginning. Why does Jacob assume that anyone who defends or continues to support David Nathan is also a heretic and shares his beliefs?

    Not all who defend DN subscribe to his apparently unbiblical views. Perhaps they think the whole thing is a misunderstanding and accept David’s explanations. As I did. It is surely not a crime to be sincerely persuaded that he is innocent of the charges of heresy – even if he turns out to be guilty after all!

    Doctrinally, the only thing I can say (from listening to the Eschatology series) is that I think David is too dispensationalist. The idea that the blood of Christ is ineffective in the Millennium may be a corollary to the belief that nobody can be born again at that time. But then it becomes ridiculous, like his categorical statement (in video 7 I think) that the 144,000 are not born again! In that case how did they become part of God’s Kingdom (John 3:3f)? Surely the efficacy of the Atonement is for all times and for all peoples? Otherwise none of the Old Testament saints could ever be born again either!

    There is much more to this business than meets the eye, but through it all the Lord is testing each of us. Will we respond in a godly way, forgiving hurts and allowing Him to work it all out for good to us? Will we pray for wisdom and discernment? Will we gather in obedience to the “Captain of the Lord’s host” and learn the same lesson as Joshua did? When he challenged Him, (my paraphrase) “Friend or foe?!” the Lord simply said, “No”.

    We too tend to ask the wrong questions and come to the wrong conclusions. The real enemies are not individual people, but the true Enemy who often uses people to work his schemes.

    • billrandles says:

      Dear Jeanette, I am glad the article helped you and couldn’t agree more that the rhetoric that has marked this “debate” has been unfortunate and unhelpful and even abusive towards earnest people on both sides who sim[ly couldn’t understand the nuances but were in good faith. I am sorry for that and have tried to bring correction to Jacob, and of course cannot speak for him.

      • Jeannette says:

        Thank you so much. This is a really steep learning curve for all of us.

        When the “Toronto Blessing” began to hit, and I didn’t know what to think, the Lord warned me that there would be confusion. This is even worse, but if we look to Him, He will keep us steady and enable us to walk on the water and ride the storm.

        I have just begun listening to Jacob’s recent messages “Antichrist, the Stage Being Set”. He sincerely believes that DN is in serious error, but his tone is immensely moderated from some previous “Rants”.

        All we can do is “Watch and pray” – especially pray for discernment.

        Praying for you too, Brother.

  15. Sue Atkins says:

    V
    Please please Bill…no more of this. Just leave it now, no good can come of repetition.
    Sue

  16. Lori Gattuso says:

    Bill,

    What do you do with this video? It seems that Jacob agreed with David about the millennium at least in 2016.

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