Believing Is The Only Requirement For Salvation…against OSAS pt 5

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” ( John 6;28-29)

Salvation cannot be obtained by our personal merit. Thank God , because there is not one of us who could ever merit salvation. We cannot earn it, nor can we who have received the gift, ever lose it due to lack of merit. The scriptures make it obvious, “By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight…”.

None of us can earn our salvation, nor can we in anywise put God in debt to us, all that He gives is freely given, it is grace. Salvation is Grace, undeserved favor.

If we couldn’t do anything to earn it, neither can we forfeit it by what we do. I do not believe that there is any particular sin that a believer can do which would cost him his salvation.

I cannot emphasize these blessed and simple truths enough, because those of us who set out the case against ‘unconditional assurance’ , (ie Once Saved Always Saved) are always accused of preaching ” good works”, or works based salvation.

Thank God for scriptures like Ephesians 2:8-10,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. ( Ephesians 2:8-10)

There is nothing I could ever do to earn my salvation, nor to lose it, nor to add to it or take away from it, thank God. Therefore there is nothing I can personally boast in, all of the glory for my salvation goes to Jesus, who, “…has Loved us and bought us from our sins with his own blood”.(Revelation 1:5)

Salvation is not unconditional however. There is one, and only one condition, and that is that we must believe. “He that believes…shall have eternal life”. “This is the Work, that you believe on Him whom the Father has sent”.

Over and over again, we are told by the Apostles that we must believe to be saved. All the Father requires is belief, steadfast, loyal faith. He knows we are weak, unsteady, liable to sin, fall and defect, yet all he requires is belief.

Is the requirement to believe, in the bible a “one time” experience, or is belief seen as an ongoing loyalty which sustaines to the very end, (the goal) of Salvation ?

Popular Bible teacher Charles Stanley presents a very common misconception about saving Faith when He assures people,

Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.” (Stanley Charles, Eternal Security- Can You Be sure? Thomas Nelson pg 93)

The Apostles never taught anything like that. Instead they taught believers to “Hold fast the profession of their hope … to the end…”

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ( Hebrews 3:6)

The danger to the soul, according to the teaching of Hebrews , is ‘unbelief’. The example from the Old Testament was the incident with the 12 spies. All of Israel heard the gospel of the land flowing with milk and honey. All of them rejoiced, until they came to Kadesh Barnea, where they saw the Giants.

From then on, only two out of that entire whole truly believed! The rest fell short of entering into God’s rest, because they cast aside their confidence, in unbelief.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; ( Hebrews 3:14)

What does this say about people now, who once believed passionately in Christ and the gospel, but who no longer “hold fast”? I know people who set out believing in Christ, but who no longer maintain faith. Are they still saved? As we pointed out in the last message, “whoever goes on believing shall be saved…” , not whoever ever believed at one time!

Saving Faith is not mere mental assent to a set of propositions. It is an ongoing commitment of a loyalty to a Revelation from God, much like the vows at a wedding. it is “faithfulness”, a response to what God has done and revealed. Jesus called it “abiding in the vine” in John 15.

Neither Jesus or the Apostles ever held forth anything similar to Charles Stanley’s proposition that one can be saved on a temporary belief, which one eventually defects from. Believers “go on believing” whatever it takes. If that belief calls for self renunciation, so be it. When the belief requires personal repentance, true believers repent. None of those things are “works” they are simply elements of the one and only condition God has set on salvation, Faith.

This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

73 Responses to Believing Is The Only Requirement For Salvation…against OSAS pt 5

  1. Deemar says:

    I was just reading this morning:
    Romans 11:17-22
    “But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the ]rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

    Saving belief = “continuing in His kindness”… I like that phrase.
    That is not a work.
    I like how this verse clearly tells us not to be conceited (about our standing), but instead have a healthy fear. If they fell, so too can we if we neglect such a great salvation.

  2. Dan says:

    Is this the perseverance of the saints that Calvinist hold as one of their pillars?

    • Tim says:

      OSAS is a similar idea to the Calvinist perseverance.
      However the Calvinists base their version on their insistence that God chooses who will be saved and by exclusion, those who will not be saved.
      Therefore in Calvinist eyes, if God has chosen someone for salvation there’s no way salvation can be lost.

  3. Yes! We are betrothed to Christ. The marriage hasn’t happened yet. But the bride must be “found faithful” (1 Cor. 4:2). She must remain in Him and let His words remain in her. We can’t forsake His Word (or corrupt it through false teaching). This is how we show our love, loyalty, and faithfulness to Him. Will a man marry a woman who absolutely rejects him? Will he take her kicking and screaming down the aisle? If we reject the Word, we reject Him. He is the Word.

  4. Karen says:

    Forty years ago, just after we got married, my husband’s dad called and said he wanted us to come to his house on Friday night because he had a preacher from a church he had just started going to, coming over. When we got there, my husbands two brothers were there and we were told to sit down and they were to repeat the sinner’s prayer after the pastor. Which they did. I was saved in Sunday school at four years old. However since that night, there has been no evidence of him being born again. Putting off the old man and becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus. It has been quite the opposite in fact. So, I am not sure of his salvation because his actions speak otherwise. He gets very angry and says I am judging him if I try to help him not be so angry and verbally abusive to his family. He mocks me anytime I tell him things he doesn’t want to hear.
    What to do? I have been praying for him for 40 years. He thinks nothing applies to him. Can you please help me sort this out? How can people be truly saved, that say they are, when they go against the word?

    • Audrey says:

      I was reminded of the following verses that could be meditated upon.
      1 Peter 3:1-2, “Likewise you wives, be submissive to your own husbands, so that if any do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, as they see the purity and reverence of your lives.”

    • billrandles says:

      sister I am hoping this series of blog posts will help you, we will pray also fo your father, there are many, may like him.Pas Bill

      On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:32 PM Pastor Bill Randles Blog wrote:

      >

      • Karen says:

        Thank you for all of the replies to help me. I have been very submissive to him for all of these years, I guess I am just wearing out in these days. But….I do know that when I am weak, Jesus is my strength. Thank you for the prayers!!

    • rlvan says:

      My heart goes out to you but i am confused. Is it your father-in-law, brother-in-law or your husband who is angry?

  5. Deemar says:

    Matt 7
    “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.”
    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

    Rev 20
    Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  6. Deemar says:

    No matter what we ‘claim’, the fruit of our lives (our deeds) show what is inside our hearts…
    whether good or bad.
    The LORD is The Perfect Judge.

  7. GJ says:

    I’ve been thinking about this the last few weeks. We have to eat and drink to stay alive physically. So do we to remain alive in Christ… https://hopeishereblog.wordpress.com/2019/09/15/eat-drink/

  8. David Close says:

    Here here great word thank you Bill alwaws beliveing in him no matter what the circumstance David Gympie Qld.

  9. John Dan says:

    So going back to the analogy of salvation being like a marriage… If God considers us His bride and has granted us this honor (salvation) as an unearned gift, then does it really follow that no amount of unfaithfulness on our part can lead to divorce?

    • Tim says:

      John Dan,
      Each of us individually are not His bride.
      His bride consist of the total number of believers throughout history.
      Whether we are part of that number is dependent on believing. Not a one time statement of belief, but an ongoing life believing in Him.

      • rlvan says:

        Tim I have read your answers throughout this series and you are always SPOT ON! Always kind, patient, concise and more importantly always biblical. It’s always a pleasure to read your comments. May God richly bless you.

      • John Dan says:

        Tim, the analogy still works. I agree that we are as a church collectively His bride but practically the lessons of that are applied at an individual level. For us to be a faithful bride collectively we must be individually faithful.

    • Tim says:

      Thanks Rivan,
      I’m someone who spent far too many years deceived by false doctrine that I belligerently tried to push onto others. It took a serious “crisis of faith” to shake me up and led me to search the scriptures for myself instead of relying on others to tell me what it means.

      For too long I could confidently quote scripture texts to prove I was right and others were wrong, in a practice I now call duelling with scripture.

      I eventually realised that my understanding and use of those texts was often according to the context of my favoured teachers’ preaching and NOT according to the actual biblical context.
      I’d often memorised verses from teaching recordings instead of from bible reading.

      One of the most important lessons I’ve learned is respect Biblical context. It’s scary how often familiar verses don’t really mean what we’ve been taught they mean – when their correct context is taken into account.

  10. standingfirm says:

    You are a 100% Correct Tim! Many years ago I took a course on how to study the bible correctly, and the number one rule was “context is king” when applying the correct application of a verse. Praying we will all see the King very soon!!!
    MARANATHA!!!

  11. seamus says:

    I am a recent convert but still find it difficult to witness or talk about Christianity with many of my colleagues who are unbelievers .I dont seem to have the stomach for ridicule or the facts to counter the usual atheist rhetoric. i feel this means im not saved .
    What should i do ?
    and is witnessing considered “Works” . i.e is it necessary ?
    Seamus

    • billrandles says:

      Welcome to the family Seamus. It is not unusual to have a conflict within yourself about witnessing, for the first time in your life you are going against th flow of “the World” instead of floating along with it. Actually it is a sign of your salvation that you have this conflict. When you ask if witnessing is a “work” that dpends upon what kind of “work” you mean. We are certainly not saved by “works” therefore we will not be saved because we witnessed enough. Your salvation is a free gift of God’s grace, unearned and granted to you due to Jesus’ work. But there is another kind of “work”, a confirming work. This is the kind James reffered to when he said “Faith without works is dead”. These are the works we do as an outflow of our love and gratitude to the LORD. The motive for what we do is as important as what we do. Another thing, by saring your faith in spite of the awkward feeling we get with the world, you are in effect, “overcoming the Wold”, I John 5, keep on in your faith brother, Pas Bill

  12. Helen Foreman says:

    Thank you, Pastor Bill. This is what it truly means to “defend the faith”. In Spirit and in Truth. GOD bless you, brother.

  13. Frank Rogers says:

    Amen, great for any staunch five pointer to meditate upon

  14. KT says:

    A Review of Charles Stanley’s Book

    Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure?*

    This is an excerpt of a review from the Spring 1991 issue of the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society (pp.69-71).

    No one who reads Eternal Security can doubt for a moment the writer’s deep conviction that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. For example, Stanley writes: “Look at that verse [John 3:18] and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual ‘believe in’ Him” (p. 67). It would be hard to put it more plainly than that!. . .

    Among the most impressive sections in the book is the chapter entitled, “For Those Who Stop Believing” (chapter 8). Here Stanley clearly says some things which should have often been said before. For example, he writes: “The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand” (p. 74). This is beautifully put. Equally lucid is the striking paragraph: “Faith is simply the way we say yes to God’s free gift of eternal life. Faith and salvation are not one and the same anymore than a gift and the hand that receives it are the same. Salvation or justification or adoption- whatever you wish to call it-stands independently of faith. Consequently, God does not require a constant attitude of faith in order to be saved-only an act of faith” (p. 80). A little later, Stanley also writes: “You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord” (p. 80)…

    But just as this author is unmistakably clear in his doctrine of salvation, he is equally clear in another widely neglected area: the doctrine of rewards! Few (if any!) contemporary writers are more insistent on the role that this doctrine should play as a motivation for godly Christian living. This reviewer particularly enjoyed this crisp paragraph: “Does our behavior matter once we are assured of our salvation? You bet it does. Are there any eternal consequences when a believer sins? Absolutely. Will eternity be the same for those who follow Christ faithfully and those who live for themselves? Not a chance” (p. 118). Shortly afterwards he states: “Keep in mind we are not talking about heaven and hell. That is a different issue all together. Our works have nothing to do with where we spend eternity. But they have a lot to do with what we can expect once we get there” (p. 118). The GES reader is urged to study Dr. Stanley’s entire discussion of this subject in chapters 12-14. These chapters are an effective response to the tired old argument that if we are secure, we no longer have reasons for living a godly life…

    This book’s message is crisp, clear, and uncompromisingly scriptural. It is precisely such a book as is urgently needed in our day and time…
    -Reviewed by Zane C. Hodges

    *Nashville: Oliver Nelson, 1990.195 pp. Cloth, $14.95.

    • anne says:

      KT, good comment. One thing I would like to add is some pastors seem to forget 1 Corinthians 11:20-30. Sinning Christians , “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.” The sin unto death 1 John 5:16-17. Prior in 1 Corinthians verse 28 says, “let a man examine himself”. Some don’t do that, but God takes care of the sinning Christian. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 talks about the sinning Christians how we are to avoid such, “…Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.” vs. 13. These sinning “Christians” are Christians! They have not lost their salvation but God is chastening them, and even some sleep (die) for certain sins against him and in 1 Corinthians 11:30 is said that some of them “sleep”, they too are Christians! Sinning Christians seem to forget what Christ has done for them, and they are living in the flesh. Lets not be holier than thou people in that what is being taught here by Bill Randles about loosing your salvation in John 3:16 where he added to the scriptures saying “whoever keeps on believing.” Which is another gospel which we were warned about in Galatians 1! “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs 30:6. It’s the sinning Christian they are looking at on this blog and thinking to themselves, “they lost their salvation look at how they are living” and on that I would say, “The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to be a sinner.” Luke 18:11-13

    • Jeanne T. says:

      Posting someone else’s review of a book isn’t an argument in favor of your viewpoint.

  15. KT says:

    If you want to listen to some really good sermons, with scripture in CONTEXT, go to link below, if link does not work

    search for Sermon Audio, when open search for Open Door Baptist Church, Pastor Ken Stodola, search for the series Life of Messiah, to start at beginning of series “Sort By” Oldest

    it will start with the sermon called Division In Christ……………..

    https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=9231920112403

    Bill you might want to skip down to sermon entitled “Happy Hanukkah”

    • anne says:

      KT, looks like your trying to fight a loosing battle with Tim, just like the last Blog, 11 comments by Tim. Dust off your feet. They don’t always show my comments maybe they don’t like what I say, and I know it really doesn’t matter anyway. I will listen to your sermons when I have time. But will not listen anymore if I hear something that is not scriptural. Blessings~ P.S. you might like this, it’s very helpful, that is if they post my comment anyway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck20AD-QNaY Let me know!

      • KT says:

        I’m not really posting to anyone in particular. I am just being obedient to contend. The Lord will take care of the rest. Regarding the sermons you might be pleasantly surprised. I was. I will check out your link. KT

  16. Tim says:

    The best source of scripture in context is scripture itself, not preachers who claim things like:

    “The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand”

    That and so many other claims made in the review of the Charles Stanley book are completely false.

    What does scripture say?

    If we deny Him,
    He also will deny us.

    And yet so many ignore that part and skip ahead to:

    If we are faithless,
    He remains faithful

    As if that means if we are faithless to Him, He will remain faithful to us, an interpretation that is completely refuted by the previous verse.

    That section of scripture continues with:

    He cannot deny Himself

    it makes clear he remains faithful to HIMSELF, to His character, to His word. It does not mean he remains faithful to those who are faithless, still rewarding them with salvation.

  17. KT says:

    Tim you are in error here because you do not know the scriptures……..

    Tim you write —– “it makes clear he remains faithful to HIMSELF, to His character, to His word. It does not mean he remains faithful to those who are faithless, still rewarding them with salvation.”

    Show me the scriptures that support your conclusion that salvation is a “Reward”?? Based on faithfulness………Hmmmm

    Do you believe the scriptures teach that it is by grace that you have been saved? and not of works?

    From your statement above you would have me believe they say the following………

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever is FAITHFUL to Him should not perish, but have eternal life. …

    So what do the Scriptures say Tim? Is eternal life given by believing or by being faithful????

    You council me more than once throughout this blog at more than one post to look only to scripture and to not be falling for teachers who tickle my ears…………YET, you are following Bill Randles here and you both obviously have serious issues with knowing what scripture is saying……….Bill’s theology is like the old indian saying, he speaks with forked tongue ——– you cannot read that no one can take a believer out of his hand and that the Father is GREATER and then in the next breath say that a believer can walk out of his hand……………..because that would mean that Jesus is lying when He said those words. Bill would have us all believe that we are greater than God and that we (obviously someone – as opposed to what Jesus said NO ONE) can turn our backs on God and walk away from God and LOSE OUR ETERNAL LIFE…..that is what he equates walking out of God’s hand with losing our eternal life…totally a contradiction and causes confusion – can God keep us or can’t He?………….when in reality Christians, true born again Christians CANNOT walk away from their eternal life, but they CAN walk away from FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD, but YES, THEY ARE STILL SAVED JESUS SAYS SO

    John 6…38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”…

    It does not say everyone who is faithful to Him shall have eternal life……….it says everyone who looks to the Son and BELIEVES in him.

    You and Bill confuse salvation and discipleship………..salvation you CANNOT lose, but fellowship and being Jesus’ disciple a true born again Christian can fail at………I mean really how can you DIE to eternal life???? Eternal = everlasting………..unending…………..

    I do not think I am taking scripture out of context here Tim………….Don’t you see you are FORCING your idea that Jesus will not REWARD salvation to the unfaithful????? Totally not Biblical. You have totally jacked that scripture up to justify your UNSCRIPTURAL interpretation that Jesus will not be faithful to the unfaithful………….that is NOT what that scripture is saying…….go back, do over Tim…….Context is key I will agree with you, but you are the one taking things totally out of context because YOU don’t believe what the verse above says……………..that Jesus is faithful even if we are not!! He died for us while we were YET sinners……….but now we have to be faithful or He will not REWARD us with salvation………gacccck you cannot even see it can you????

    Maybe you, Bill and your fellowship might want to start a group study of the SCRIPTURES and see what they say regarding the difference between salvation and discipleship………so much confusion and tension when believing 2 diametrically opposed interpretations of one verse, it can cause a lot of cognitive dissonance, especially when you are not believing rightly what the verse is saying…………or you can google “simply belief” and find a really good blog with in-depth study on this issue – your choice – meh

    I won’t be commenting again to you Tim so take the time you would answer me and go study……….

    I have already gotten your message that I follow teachers that tickle my ears because I post articles that are pertinent to the conversation, and you assume that I never crack open my Bible and that I need to ONLY study scripture. You make a lot of assumptions and judgments about me Tim, and you have admitted that you don’t read the material I post because yeah, you have this all down from the first line or words like Calvinism or Arminianism……………

    I will again encourage you to do some serious study of the contradiction being taught here by Bill on this damnable heresy of OSAS and unconditional security…..BUT……..really it is a matter of eternal life or death………….what you believe Jesus says. Because if you believe Jesus for your eternal life and salvation – He’s got that COVERED……………believe it…….

    Wages and rewards is what is working it as far as being a disciple and that is going to determine the QUALITY of your eternal life. Jesus encourages us to lay up for ourselves heavily treasure

    Seriously, if you get it, you will see how utterly life transforming this is, instead of always looking to yourself to maintain something that is DONE, you can be out working and laying up eternal treasure…..secure in Christ……and telling someone else how they can be set free and the eternal life they have waiting for them……………….but you too busy trying to be faithful to KEEP YOUR SALVATION current by believing everyday…………….I’m not saying a Christian is not to work at being faithful and obedient but we are not to do those things to add to something that has already been done by Christ, but to grow up in Him and be His Disciple.

    Tim we are to speak the truth in Love with all gentleness and respect this has been and continues to be what I strive for (I have the teeth marks in my tongue to prove it) though truth be told I’m more of a turning the tables over in the temple kind of person. I’ve only done that once because I realize I am no where near righteous enough to justify that option. I am sensitive to where you have been from you sharing where you have come from in your walk and the deceit you have experienced. I too have walked the outer edges of hell and only by the grace of God did I not fall in. I came to find out though deceit was all around me feeding me lies daily, it was revealing when I found that the one most able to deceive me was myself. Tim we are not to tear each other down but to build each other up and to lovingly work with each other, for we are all one body and if you are ill I am ill and visa versa. With that said, I want to say that though the words written above might at times sound mean or unloving, sorry it was not my intent. I realize why you are yourself so outspoken, but one last thing…………regarding your past history of being deceived following unscriptural teachers, etc……you honestly might not be out of the woods yet and are still being deceived. None of us are or will be out of the woods until Jesus brings us home. In fact this last year has been nothing but the subtly of our adversary the devil and though he is described as a roaring lion prowling around seeking who he can devour, I have found he may be as hungry as a lion and ready to devour but usually shows up like a warm cuddly kitten. I pray to the Lord for you as well as for myself, that He reveal the offensive ways in me and lead me in the way everlasting. If you want to have any honest dialog in the future regarding assurance of your salvation and being a disciple of Jesus Christ, feel free to let me know.

  18. Tim says:

    So you think there’s a discrepancy between believing and faithfulness?
    What do you consider to be the difference between belief and faith?
    If someone is not living in belief they have no salvation. It is not enough to have “believed” at some time in the past.

    You also say that I am “following Bill Randles here and you both obviously have serious issues”.

    You couldn’t be further from the truth about me following Bill Randles. I’ve made my differences with Bill well known on other issues, but on this topic he has been right and you couldn’t be more wrong.

    As I’ve suggested, its time for you to put away your theology books an articles and spend time with scripture ALONE.

  19. Tim says:

    …you have this all down from the first line or words like Calvinism or Arminianism…

    I read more than that, but yes, the references to Arminian and Calvinist were more than enough to signal man’s theology.
    Arminian/Calvinist arguments are a theological tennis match I abandoned a long time ago.

    Anyone identifying as “Arminian”, or “Calvinist” – or who reduce their gospel understanding to flower-named acronyms seriously misses the point.

  20. KT says:

    Tim I told you not to bother answering me and to go back and study things…….didn’t think you would…….still think you should……………should I answer you? You don’t really seem to sincere in wanting to have a discussion on this subject and I say this because………………

    In your reply it is obvious that you did not answer any of the questions I asked you – see following repeats below…………….

    Show me the scriptures that support your conclusion that salvation is a “Reward”?? Based on faithfulness………Hmmmm

    Do you believe the scriptures teach that it is by grace that you have been saved? and not of works?

    So what do the Scriptures say Tim? Is eternal life given by believing or by being faithful????

    Instead of answering my questions you just ask me more questions, which show me that yeah you don’t get it…………but I will answer your questions.

    Tim: So you think there’s a discrepancy between believing and faithfulness?

    No Tim there is no discrepancy between believing and faithfulness – believing and faith are synonymous in the context of salvation……if the meaning of the word faith is really being used in the context of belief………but being born again and being a disciple are two different animals just as is justification, a one time event when believing in Jesus for your eternal life and sanctification, which is a lifetime walk of a disciple…….and not every Christian walks that road….

    I could put in the definitions for Justification and sanctification but that can be your homework if you choose to look further into these things.

    Tim – because you believe….. “If someone is not living in belief they have no salvation. It is not enough to have “believed” at some time in the past.” You – Tim and Bill, confuse the two, i.e. justification, sanctification……..

    and actually because I trust Jesus with my salvation and my eternal life, when I have times of “apostasy, unbelief, faithlessness, sinning,” or as you say “living in unbelief” the only thing I do not have at those times is ASSURANCE and why would I have ASSURANCE? But having assurance of eternal life is NOT eternal life. Because I believed Jesus for my eternal life He is still faithful even if I am not, thank GOD!!! Does this make me want to go out and live the life of a sinner???? To that Christian I would say they better do some serious study on the judgement seat of Christ and if they want to watch their WORKS burned up or had no eternal treasure, and I would also refer them to Hebrews where the writer warns BELIEVERS that is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Tim – “What do you consider to be the difference between belief and faith?” See my answer above………

    So, up to this point in your replies to me, you never answer my questions and give any scriptures to support your view, you only ask me questions, then you make a statement – see below and yet you give absolutely not one scripture to back it up……………..but I will go on and defend the Biblical stance of being born again, saved, etc.

    Again, Tim, you say……”If someone is not living in belief they have no salvation. It is not enough to have “believed” at some time in the past.” This statement from you says it all Tim…….and again not one scripture to back this up……….and you do not have what Jesus offers you because your faith or belief or whatever word you want to call it and define it by your own mind is not what Jesus offers…….He offers a one time – If you believe (The condition) you are born again (Done)……………are you one of those that does continuous altar calls? Born again one day and the next service you are asking for salvation again because you walked like a sinner all week long and abdicated your eternal life, i.e. died again??? How do you know you are believing ENOUGH Tim? You obviously have turned the focus off the OJECT of faith, which is Jesus, to yourself and whether or not YOU are continuing in belief…………..or are you one of those that thanks God that you are walking that believing tight-rope on a daily, minute-by-minute basis and not sinning and living in unbelief like all of those other deluded not-really-believers that only think they are saved? Which road of assurance are you on? Continual rededication or walking the tightrope of belief – do I dare share this scripture with you –

    Matthew 11:28-30 KJV 28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

    …….again, answer my question where are the scriptures that teach that I have to keep believing to gain eternal life in the end………..which is what your belief/faith implies that I have to keep on believing until the end to get “rewarded” with salvation……………I am not sure which theologian it is, since I do not follow theologians, but there is one, and probably more, that refer to what you are talking about as “FINAL SALVATION”, which again is not Biblical, but it is exactly what the logical end game is if I take your statement – I have to continue believing – to its final, logical, conclusion, UNLESS I BELIEVE AND CONTINUE TO BELIEVE UNTIL THE END OF MY LIFE I WILL NOT HAVE SALVATION. That is what you are saying YES/NO??

    You are also saying you can die to eternal life……………..because Jesus says that is what He gives His sheep, eternal life……………..can you explain to me how a person can die from eternal life???

    Tim you say to me “As I’ve suggested, its time for you to put away your theology books an articles and spend time with scripture ALONE.” I feel the love Tim……….

    You certainly are a puffed up piece of work aren’t you Tim……snarky begets snarky sorry….Again, just because I post VALID articles on the subject at hand……………….you judge me. You defend your following Bill by saying you have had differences and not afraid to tell him so, but on THIS subject you agree with him, that he is right and I couldn’t be more wrong………….hahahha so who is following scripture ALONE now Tim???? Hmmm because you agree with Bill on this everyone else who doesn’t is WRONG………..That’s scriptural………

    And yet, you sill have not answered my question to you, see above, asking for SCRIPTURE to support you and Bill’s unbiblical stand on this damnable heresy of OSAS………………..

    My defense of my position scripturally, just to narrow it down for you and Bill, read the book of John…………………..it is written to unbelievers in mind ……….so that they may know by reading it how to have eternal life. I think John says BELIEVE over 98 times – and go ahead try and make it say continuous believing 98 times. Though it should be evident that the entire WORD speaks of salvation by grace alone and not of works……even the work of continuous believing……or are your ears being too tickled to hear?

    As far as your prideful attitude goes regarding “Theologians” you ought to be ashamed of yourself……..you don’t read entire articles, you just judge………………when you should read the articles and like a good Berean search the word to see if what they are saying lines up with the ENTIRE word of God.

    Regarding the Calvinism/Arminian debate, too bad you didn’t read the entire article because yeah they were debunking those beliefs among others it was a contrast/compare article in support of the position of OSAS, but you wouldn’t know that because you didn’t read it past those words…..because theologians…………since you didn’t read the whole thing or search those things out you have nothing to say to me of any merit – you actually removed yourself from the discussion with your attitude, as well as your bias against OSAS. You did not even use one scripture to support the Bill is right and I agree stance. Also, you seem to be a force unto yourself with your attitude regarding “Theologians” generally………………but Tim doesn’t God uses believers to hone each other, sandpaper if you will…………for as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another………..

    Even Paul had to get in Peters face when he was not upholding the gospel of grace and that is my only motivation here.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    I am wondering if what you and Bill believe isn’t another gospel……………………….

    The conclusion from all of Bill’s postings regarding this subject is this……………though he is adamant that you cannot lose your salvation not because you believe, have faith, trust in Jesus………(that’s too simple)……..it is only true (can’t lose your salvation) if you keep on believing and continuing in the faith every day until the end of your life, also when in doubt grab onto some scriptures to assure you that you have eternal life, except of course those scriptures where Jesus says He gives eternal life to anyone who believes, or you have eternal life unless you take yourself out of God’s hands (because no one can except yourself according to Bill, so we must be greater than God – see the actual verse to see how Bill abused its use – see John 10:28-29)…………..Clear as mud I would say…………………Again, the only conclusion a person could come to from reading Bills posts on this subject is this – you are saved by grace but it is maintained by works.

    Here is a link to another GOOD article that you won’t read…… but if you do, search the scriptures out too see if what this person says is true or not true in light of God’s Word…………….

    https://faithalone.org/magazine/y2006/06so2.html

    • anne says:

      KT, thumbs up and great article. I have been getting the magazine monthly. I heard a pastor preach a very good sermon and in it he said to pastors need to keep reading articles, books, and such keeps our mind working. God has given his word, and ‘spiritual gifts’ to all believers to profit all believers, for the edification of the church, to grow and learn thereby (1 Corinthians 12, 2 Cor. 10, Eph. 4:8-16) How does one get edified if they listen to no one? Does Tim listen to sermons?. Blessings~

      • Tim says:

        Anne asked:

        How does one get edified if they listen to no one?

        Paul wrote:

        Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

        That seems much more like everyone interacting and sharing together than having one “expert” tell everyone something, and have everyone lap up what that one person teaches.

        Three essential aspects of edification:

        1) Scripture
        2) Holy Spirit
        3) Interaction with other believers.

        Most commonly none of the above are given their part.
        Instead people listen to a sermon or maybe read a book or article, and maybe (but rarely) check a few quoted proof texts.

        The majority of doctrinal disagreements arise because individual believers have not read scripture for themselves, for the purpose of discovering what scripture itself actually says.
        Too often scripture reading comes secondary to following what favoured teachers say, and how often are those teachers merely teaching what they were taught by others rather than from scripture itself.

      • Tim says:

        Does Tim listen to sermons?.

        HI Anne,
        Yes, but a lot have been far from edifying, so they are aids only and not given the opportunity to become doctrinal authority.

        I have found their usefulness has often been part of general interaction with other believers, correcting or confirming what I’m learning from scripture.

        One example of sermons that I found were very helpful was some teaching about “the millennium”. I knew nothing about that period, apart from the very little mentioned in Revelation.
        The preacher went into significant detail and I was sure his talk was 99.9% speculation (like so much end time teaching) – so at first I couldn’t accept what he’d been teaching.
        But then, over the next few months, in my personal bible reading, I started to come across everything he’d taught, “hidden” away in the OT prophetic books.

        The preacher had been different, in the fact that he didn’t continually quote chapter and verse to “support” what he said. He merely taught what the bible said, and left it up to the hearer to search the scriptures for themselves.

        Overall that was a much more profitable learning experience for me. Not only did I learn about an important part of God’s future, I also learned a vital practical lesson in Bible reading.
        How easy (but less instructive) it would have been to be given a string of bible references in the sermon itself.
        By coming across the references myself later, I saw them in their genuine context, avoiding the possibility of being swayed by a preacher’s manufactured context.

      • KT says:

        Thank you for your feedback Anne. God Bless. I hope some of the links I posted will be a blessing to you. KT

      • KT says:

        Anne thanks for the feedback. I hope some of the links I posted are a blessing to you. Wish there were some way for us to connect outside of this blog, there are so few out there who take the Lord at His Word for his promise of eternal life to those who believe Him for it.

      • anne says:

        Simple explanation: https://ingrace.us/its-not-complicated-jim-scudder-jr/ And this is where I get my gospel tracks. Blessings~

    • Belief and faithfulness carry the same meaning in the Greek language. If you look them up in Strong’s Concordance, G4100 -G4104, each definition carries both the idea of “belief” and “fidelity.”

      • Tim says:

        Thanks Diana.
        That’s a simple reality that it seems is being clouded through theological doubletalk.

      • anne says:

        Diana Lesperance, Belief: The Greek word for belief is used only once here in 2 Thess. 2:13. “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF (pistis, Strongs :4102) of the truth.” “Conviction of the truth of anything; belief; In the N.T. of a conviction or belief respecting mans relationship to God and divine things generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it. Relating to God: The conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ. Strong conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God.” FAITHFULNESS is not used in the New Testament, only the old so we have to go to Hebrew. Faithfulness is used 19 times. Strongs: 530, 3559 (Hebrew). “For there is not faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulcher; they flatter with their tongue.” Example: Psalms 5:9. “For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulcher; they flatter with their tongue.” The Hebrew word for faithfulness is Kuwn 3559. Its a Parse word (Niphal/Participle). Means to be firm, be stable, be established. Kuwn, koon; a primitive root, properly, to be erect (i.e. stand perpendicular) see Genesis 41:32 “Participle tense: The participle represents an action or condition in its unbroken continuity, and corresponds to the English verb “to be” with the present participle. It may be used of present, past or future time, etc. In this verse Psalm 5:9, it corresponds to Romans 3:13 because Paul quotes it. Blessings

      • Anne,

        The word “faithful” appears in 50 verses in the NT. G4103: pistos:

        Outline of Biblical Usage:
        trusty, faithful
        of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties
        one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust
        that can be relied on
        easily persuaded
        believing, confiding, trusting
        in the NT one who trusts in God’s promises
        one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead
        one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

        The word “believe” appears in 220 verses in the NT. G4100: “pisteou”:

        Outline of Biblical Usage:
        to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
        of the thing believed
        to credit, have confidence
        in a moral or religious reference
        used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
        to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
        mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith.
        to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
        to be intrusted with a thing

        Both definitions include the idea of fidelity or faithfulness AND belief. We are commanded to be faithful to God:

        “Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.” 1 Cor. 4:1-2.

        “Well done, good and faithful servant.” Matt. 25: 21

        Unfaithfulness is called spiritual adultery. It was the sin of the Pharisees (Matt. 16:4). He called them twice the sons of hell.

        Lucifer once believed and worshiped God, but he was unfaithful and fell away.

        Eve once walked with God but she was seduced away and became unfaithful (2 Cor. 11:3). Consequently, she and Adam were kicked out of Eden.

        Unfaithfulness was the sin of the Israelites in the wilderness as they worshiped the golden calf.

        All of the OT prophets had one message: your unfaithfulness to God (by worshiping Baal) is leading you to judgment.

        Unfaithfulness was the sin of Judas, who betrayed Jesus with a kiss.

        In the last days many shall fall away (like Lucifer) and depart from the faith. (G4102). I Tim. 4:1.

        How is the Lord any different from you or me? Would you want to marry an unfaithful person?

        Faithfulness of the heart is a requirement of salvation. If we deny him-without repentance (like Peter), he will deny us.

        How could it be any other way? Wouldn’t heaven be filled with subversives and rebels who disagreed with the Word of God if all who denied him were carried to heaven?

      • anne says:

        Diana, you did not use the word “faithful” in your post, you used the words, “Belief and faithfulness”. Don’t try to correct me, your the one who used those specific words, not me. We seem to have a problem here. The word of God means what it says. Words have meaning people. Don’t exchange words around to suite your purposes. You said Belief!

  21. Tim says:

    Tim I told you not to bother answering me and to go back and study things…….didn’t think you would…….

    KT, I have spent a life time studying, from my late teens.
    The first years I studied what men said about scripture and what they said scripture meant, and I could quote verse upon verse to prove what they had taught me.

    And then a lot of what I’d learned came crashing down when I found I could no longer push aside my increasing questions about why some of their teachings didn’t add up; that the parts of scripture they ignored tended to contradict some of the things they were teaching.

    During the last couple of decades, I have let scripture itself be the authority and found it was much easier to understand than I expected.
    I learned that proof-texting, or relying on individual bible statements to “prove” a point was not only counterproductive, it was destructive.
    ANYONE can quote verses to “prove” whatever they want to believe. It’s often more enlightening to note which parts of scripture are avoided instead of the parts being quoted as “proof”.

    The Bible is NOT a collection of countless individual theological points encapsulated in convenient quotable texts. The Bible, as a whole, is a developing revelation of God and His relationship with His creation, (in particular mankind) from the very beginning of this current creation, through to the establishment of a new heaven and earth.

    It is impossible to grasp the truth by fixating on parts of scripture while ignoring the rest.
    It is impossible to grasp the truth by fixating on individual words in scripture, while ignoring the rest.

    Instead of fixating on a word like “grace” from one verse of scripture to establish an all-over doctrine of salvation – try getting an understanding through the whole of scripture, seeing God’s grace AT WORK through His ongoing relationship with mankind.
    See God’s grace in action rather than applying man’s artificial definitions of what grace means.

    It would be a worthless exercise for me to attempt to counteract your proof texts with proof texts of my own – I long ago recognised that proof text duelling is a fruitless exercise.

    The truth will only be discovered and accepted by those who have a desire for the truth, who are willing to search the scriptures (the WHOLE of scripture) to find it.
    It will not be discovered in out of context, cherry-picked parts of scripture.

    • KT says:

      Tim you say – The truth will only be discovered and accepted by those who have a desire for the truth, who are willing to search the scriptures (the WHOLE of scripture) to find it.
      It will not be discovered in out of context, cherry-picked parts of scripture.

      All I can say is Wow!!!! This from the man who has offered me NOT ONE SCRIPTURE to back up ANYTHING you have said in any your replies to me……oh that’s right that would be worthless and fruitless…………..what you say in that sentence up above is all very true and my suggestion to you is take the beam out of your own eye, and put into practice for yourself what you so wisely state above……………….

  22. Tim says:

    <blockquoteAll I can say is Wow!!!! This from the man who has offered me NOT ONE SCRIPTURE to back up ANYTHING
    The reason for that is in the rest of my comment.

    As I tried to convey earlier, it is a dangerous and unfortunately common attitude to look at the bible as a collection of countless “scriptures” (isolated verses) that can be quoted individually and out of context to “back up” a point.

    Over almost 50 years as a believer I’ve observed and participated in far too many scripture duels to see any validity or value in continuing the practice.

  23. Tim says:

    Correction to formatting of my comment.

    All I can say is Wow!!!! This from the man who has offered me NOT ONE SCRIPTURE to back up ANYTHING

    The reason for that is in the rest of my comment.

    As I tried to convey earlier, it is a dangerous and unfortunately common attitude to look at the bible as a collection of countless “scriptures” (isolated verses) that can be quoted individually and out of context to “back up” a point.

    Over almost 50 years as a believer I’ve observed and participated in far too many scripture duels to see any validity or value in continuing the practice.

  24. Anne,

    “Diana, you did not use the word “faithful” in your post, you used the words, “Belief and faithfulness”. Don’t try to correct me, your the one who used those specific words, not me. We seem to have a problem here. The word of God means what it says. Words have meaning people. Don’t exchange words around to suite your purposes. You said Belief!”

    The point still is: faithfulness and belief are interchangeable in the Greek language. They both appear in the root word “pistis” as found in G4100-G4104.

    Belief isn’t enough. Even the demons believe- and tremble. They betrayed the Lord. Belief must include faithful allegiance. There’s only one reason Jesus said divorce was allowed. Unfaithfulness.

    When a person walks away from the faith and doesn’t repent, but begins to create their own version of the faith or reject faith completely, they open up the possibility of war in heaven again. “How could two walk together unless they be agreed?” What fellowship hath darkness with light?”

    We see in the example of Lucifer that unrepentant traitors to God can become absolutely evil. Are you saying those who depart from the faith will still be saved?

    • Tim says:

      Hi Diana, the response to your contributions demonstrate a point I’ve been making.

      I get criticised for not providing any “scriptures” to support what I’m saying.

      You give several scripture references and they are pushed aside as if irrelevant.

      No matter what is said, or what scriptural support is or is not given – there are some who just don’t want to consider that what they have been taught may be wrong.

      It’s not surprising that Jesus said a number of times “He who has ears to hear, let him hear”
      Some clearly have no interest in hearing.

      I have noted that the OSAS adherents who have commented most vociferously here are tied to their favoured proof texts, but are not so eager to address the scripture referenced by others (hence my reluctance to enter proof-text duels).

      Regarding salvation – I have noted a fondness for two references, even if they don’t quote them in full or in context:

      John 3:16 “whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life”
      And
      Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved”

      It seems those two small quotations are considered to say everything there is to say and know about salvation.

      No mention of other references such as:
      Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13 “he who endures to the end will be saved.”

      Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”

      John 10:9 “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved

      Acts 2:21 “whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.”

      Acts 2: 37-38 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
      Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

      Romans 10:9 “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

      1 Cor 15:1-2 “the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.”

      2 Thess 2:10 “they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

      The reference in 1 Cor 15 is especially interesting in the context of this subject of OSAS, when it says “you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.”
      That clearly shows that someone can believe at some time, but that belief becomes worthless if it’s not held onto.

      Most of these references suggest that one time “belief” alone is not sufficient to secure eternal salvation.

      Not one single verse of scripture expresses the full instructions of “how to be saved”. Salvation and relationship with the Saviour is not so small as to be enclosed in a single sentence or two. THAT is why we have a whole Bible to express the fullness of the gospel.

      But sadly even by quoting all of those texts, what I’ve said will still fall on deaf ears.

  25. Tim says:

    Anne said:

    “Diana, you did not use the word “faithful” in your post, you used the words, “Belief and faithfulness”

    Definition of faithfulness: “the quality of being faithful”

  26. Tim says:

    KT. It’s becoming increasingly clear that your understanding of “context” relates to whatever you feel suits your argument.

    Lets try again on your new terms, just a small selection of references to attaining ETERNAL LIFE:

    Matt 19:29 “everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.”

    Matt 24:46-46 [the separation of sheep and goats – read the whole section from verse 31] “Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

    Romans 2:5-9 “in accordance with your hardness and your ]impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish

    That last reference to eternal life is particular interesting.
    God, who will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good…

    • KT says:

      Hey Tim,

      RE: “Romans 2:5-9 “in accordance with your hardness and your ]impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish

      That last reference to eternal life is particular interesting.
      God, who will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good…”

      I agree with you that last reference to eternal life is particularly interesting, and I look forward to replying to that first, when I do reply, BUT, it is a beautiful day here and other things are going to take my time before I reply. It might not even show up for a couple of days as this beautiful weather may hold.……just didn’t want you to think I wasn’t going to answer at all, because I will and I look forward to it.

      BUT………….

      RE: “Matt 24:46-46 [the separation of sheep and goats – read the whole section from verse 31] “Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life…..”

      The verse you posted above and asking me about is not Matthew Chapter 24:31-46 it is actually Chapter 25:31-46……not trying to be difficult here pointing this out, but accurate.

      I’ll paste a full copy here:

      Matthew 25:31-46

      The Sheep and the Goats
      31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
      34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
      37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
      40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
      41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
      44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
      45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
      46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

      I will also reply on this verse, but while you are waiting for my reply on Romans 2, may I suggest you do a little homework yourself, because just by using Matthew 25 you show that you do not know the context of this chapter……the timing, who is being talked to, who is being judged, etc…and yes context is key…so here are the questions.

      What is the context of chapter 25 in light of it following chapter 24, which is Jesus talking to the disciples about the end times?

      What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs?

      Who is being judged?

      Who are “these brothers of mine?”

      What are the consequences of the judgment?

      Is the church, born again believers even present here or the focus of this judgment?

      In verse 34 who is the King talking to? What does he tell them to “Take”. Is this a reward? and if so, what did they do to earn it?

      Enjoy 🙂

  27. Roger says:

    My understanding for a truly spiritually regenerated from above believer is that Justification, through Jesus the Messiah blood sacrifice for sin, is at a point in time, and one off. Sanctification is ongoing, with the help and counsel of Lord Jesus through the Holy Spirit received at the time of justification. Glorification is at a future point in time, and one off, whether by resurrection or translation at the time of Jesus return as KING of kings.

    The ongoing ‘walk’ of sanctification we cannot achieve without His help and indwelling.

    Whilst He will never let go of those who are His – see above for scriptures posted by other commenters – we can fall away from that walk of sanctification.

    The writer to the Hebrews was clear – and whilst (in context) he was writing specifically to the Hebrews at that time, the writer was referring to those who fall away from their belief and faith in Jesus their Messiah and Lord, and to those who returned to their previous ways and beliefs.

    Hebrews 6: For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,  and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,   and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 

    Hebrews 10: For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.  For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.  But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.  But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul. 

    In His love,
    Roger

  28. Tim says:

    Interesting KT that you had time for a lengthy deflective reply with a string questions about one quote I gave that linked eternal life with righteousness (and you ignored that part), but no time to say anything about the quote that links eternal life with “deeds” and “patient continuance in doing good”.

    Clearly the Bible has more to say about obtaining eternal life than just a couple of verses in John 3.

    • Tim says:

      You’re funny Tim. I see that the questions were too hard for you to answer

      Not too hard to answer, your questions were an attempted (but irrelevant) distraction from the actual topic.
      A distraction from the fact that you want to ignore the parts of scripture that contradict your idea that a one time experience of “belief” is sufficient to guarantee eternal life – even if the one time believer walks away from the Lord. (as per the article you posted which said: ““The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand”)

      Such a claim is totally false – not only does the bible NOT make that clear, it is a statement completely at odds with the true gospel.

  29. Tim says:

    Hi Roger your description is spot on.

    We are given a fresh start in which we are cleansed of our sin and made right before God (a passing away of the old, and being made into a new creation).

    Then comes the equipping to live a sanctified life – through the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the promise of ongoing forgiveness and cleansing through confession of sin.

    And finally the changing from mortality to immortality at His return, when those already dead will be raised, and those alive will be caught up to be with Him as He returns to earth to reign.

    But our path through those different stages (justification, sanctification and glorification) is dependent on continuing in the faith, and remaining in Him.

    “you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight, if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard,

  30. Roger says:

    Hi Tim,
    Agreed. Ongoing faith and belief are the scriptural requirement. I quoted: But my righteous one shall live by faith.. nowhere does scripture say that a ‘one time’ action of faith or belief is enough – we are to strive to live by faith, active and ongoing until death or translation at His return.

    To fail to continue in that striving on our individual part, throughout our lives, is to risk falling away, and therefore to risk His saying He never knew us.

  31. Roger says:

    Katie (KT),
    Please understand that Tim is not being ‘funny’ here – he is concerned for anyone who has been misled by others teaching which adds, or takes away, from the truth of the whole of Scripture.

    His advice to you to return to scripture, and avoid those who bring their own teachings and interpretations without the context of all scripture – is genuine, and based on scripture.

    • Tim says:

      Hi Roger, over the years I’ve been guilty of believing a variety of wrong things – and at times I’ll probably be wrong again.

      But I have learned the importance of having a desire for truth, no matter how much it may overturn what I had been believing.
      I have a confidence that those who have a sincere desire and love for the truth, will in time be led to it.

      Tim

      • Roger says:

        Hi Tim,
        I confess likewise – and am reminded of both Lord Jesus promise in John 16 with reference to the Holy Spirit.. and to Davids confession and repentance in Psalm 51.

        Thankfully – our Heavenly Father is faithful toward us when we are faithful toward Him..

        In His love..

  32. Linn says:

    Agreed! Pastor Bill, PLEASE moderate your blog– don’t enable contentious people to needlessly argue! You put the true contenders for the Faith in an bad place.

  33. Roger says:

    My apologies and a correction with this line in my reply to Tim above: Thankfully – our Heavenly Father is faithful toward us when we are faithful toward Him..

    Should read: Thankfully – our Heavenly Father is faithful..!! because the faithfulness of God is NOT dependent on our faithfulness.

    2 Timothy 2 clarifies: It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s